Paging Audiopile (or someone knowledgeable with his DI's)

[Thunderbroom]

I've got one of Mark's EWI LDB-101 Active DI boxes. I won't to know if I can use it between my tube head and bass cabinet so that I can send the sound of my head to the board. I know that most folks usually run the DI before the head, and I've done this before with this box, but I really want to send the head to the PA. I'm pretty certain that it can be done by doing this:

 

Univox Head > EWI Active DI (with -30 dB pad) > GenzBenz 212 Bass Cab

 

Someone please confirm that this is doable without me screwing my rig up or the mixer.

 

Thanks!

[agedhorse]

Will probably work ok but the noise level will be greater than using a passive DI because of the high imput impedance of the active unit.

[Thunderbroom]

 

Will probably work ok but the noise level will be greater than using a passive DI because of the high imput impedance of the active unit.

 

 

I've got his passive DI as well.

 

Link

 

Would I set it at -40dB?

[WynnD]

With the 30 db attenuation, it may work. (Depends on how loud you play.) Many amps have a line out for external effects. (There is also a line in to return to the power amp, You don't need to use both.) The line out works fine in most instances.

 

What is the real reason for doing it this way? Are you looking to control the sound that the engineer will be sending on to audiences? (It won't happen. As an occassional engineer, I always check to see if the sound out of the PA is the same as what the bassist is getting from his amp. Not all engineers are that nice.) You can have the sound guy mike your amp. (That never sounds as good as a line out or DI box. Muddy bass make for a muddy band. I also play bass.) If your band runs their own PA and you just need the additional volume (hopefully because you play at low volume or have a small amp.) make sure that you don't ask more than the system is designed for. (It shouldn't be running more than 60% in most clubs. If it's not up that high, That's not an invitation to crank it. Most bands play too loud.)

[agedhorse]

Use the passive DI, and pad.

 

One thing to beware of though, the 1/4" wiring internal to the DI's are not heavy enough to pass through more than a hundred watts MAXIMUM. This means that the DI will need to take the signal from the amp without passing it through the DI.

[Thunderbroom]

We're playing a club on Saturday night that has it's own PA and soundguy. We play there about 6 - 8 times per year. The reason I want to do (try) this is I'd like the audience to hear my tube amp and not just my bass. I know that the Countryman can be used for this application. I was wondering if either of my EWI's would work.

 

Normally, I use one of my GenzBenz heads and just send the head's DI to the board.

[Thunderbroom]

 

Use the passive DI, and pad. One thing to beware of though, the 1/4" wiring internal to the DI's are not heavy enough to pass through more than a hundred watts MAXIMUM. This means that the DI will need to take the signal from the amp without passing it through the DI.

 

 

Since this head is 150w, and I'll need to play it fairly loud through the GB Neo212 to be heard in my band, using the DI isn't the best option. Am I understanding this right?

 

On a related note, could I use this mic successfully for bass...most importantly...can I drape this over my GB Neo212 with good results?

 

Sennheiser E609

[Thunderbroom]

 

Use the passive DI and pad.

 

 

Thanks Mark!

[agedhorse]

If you need to play hard to keep up, I would really suggest taking the DI off of your bass and not the amp. The PA has a way different response than your stage rig and what you need to hear on stage is considerably different than what the PA needs.

 

You can mic the cabinet, mic the NEO 12 directly and mic it straight on not draping over the top unless you have a side address type mic. Even then vibration may be a very real problem.

[Thunderbroom]

 

You can mic the cabinet, mic the NEO 12 directly and mic it straight on not draping over the top unless you have a side address type mic. Even then vibration may be a very real problem.

 

 

What mic would you recommend for draping over the Neo 212? I would like to avoid having to bring a mic stand if possible should I go this route.

[agedhorse]

Try a Sennheiser 609. Beware of the mic grille rattling on the metal speaker grille.

[Thunderbroom]

Try a Sennheiser 609. Beware of the mic grille rattling on the metal speaker grille.

 

[agedhorse]

This may work ok, but I think rattling is a possibility and if you get it out far enough, it will twist around. That's why I am hesitant in my suggestion. I also do not know if the sound is going to be what you are after. I have not tried this combination and mic for this application. I would choose a Sennheiser 421 or an ATM 25 but you would need a stand.

 

I would go direct and forget the mic personally.

[Thunderbroom]

I would go direct and forget the mic personally.

 

While you're likely right, it almost seems a waste to play through this vintage all-tube head and the audience never hears it.

 

I did a price check and the Senn is ~2X the ATR. In your opinion, is it the better of the two and does it warrant the extra cost.

[Craig Vecchione]

While you're likely right, it almost seems a waste to play through this vintage all-tube head and the audience never hears it.

 

Chances are good that the audience won't appreciate it anyway. But seriously, what Andy wrote about the PA feed having different needs than your stage monitoring is quite true. Typically a great tube sound comes across too muddy in the PA.

[Thunderbroom]

Typically a great tube sound comes across too muddy in the PA.

 

I'll take one of the Genz's then...most likely the Neopak.

 

The tube head will be relegated to the basement.

[ThudMaker]

The Univox head that T-Broom has is designed to remain very clean through the entire gain stage. This is not an Ampeg or Orange tone.

[agedhorse]

 

The Univox head that T-Broom has is designed to remain very clean through the entire gain stage. This is not an Ampeg or Orange tone.

 

 

While tube amps tend to be more colored, and bass speakers are nothing like the response of a PA system, my comments apply to solid state systems being miced as well. Even post-eq DI's are not all that great if a lot of eq is needed to achieve the stage sound. I'll take a pre-eq DI every time. Then, maybe, I'll mic the cabinet.

[Craig Vecchione]

I'll take one of the Genz's then...most likely the Neopak. The tube head will be relegated to the basement.

 

D'oh!!! I meant "STAGE" sound, not "tube". I had tube on the brain yesterday. I'm feeling much better now......really.......

[ThudMaker]

I'm left wondering what a Picasso would look like against a Monet if soundmen were sitting there telling them they knew what good paintings were, so they would take the canvas before the artists had the opportunity to paint them.

[agedhorse]

The problem with your analogy is that you are not sitting out in the audience listening to how the bass sits in the mix, how the mix fits into the room. From where you sit on the stage, your sound may be great but there are other perspectives (especially the audience's) that you do not see from your vantage point. The PA's response is going to be very different from yours, so with the signal from your amp already eq'd for your speakers and your listening environment, that same signal may compromise the ability of the (good) sound guy to achieve similar goals within the context of the band mix.

 

I am talking about giving the sound guy MORE tools to work with, not taking away anything. A good soundnguy will listen to what you are trying to achieve on the stage and translate it with the additional tools he has.

[ThudMaker]

 

The problem with your analogy is that you are not sitting out in the audience listening to how the bass sits in the mix, how the mix fits into the room. From where you sit on the stage, your sound may be great but there are other perspectives (especially the audience's) that you do not see from your vantage point. The PA's response is going to be very different from yours, so with the signal from your amp already eq'd for your speakers and your listening environment, that same signal may compromise the ability of the (good) sound guy to achieve similar goals within the context of the band mix. I am talking about giving the sound guy MORE tools to work with, not taking away anything. A good soundnguy will listen to what you are trying to achieve on the stage and translate it with the additional tools he has.

But I am out in the audience. I'm always wireless. I've also gotten some board mixes. I'm usually disappointed to say the least. IME a soundguy wants thumpity thump thump thump, because by God that's what a bass is supposed to sound like. There's no point doing nice fill work above the money frets, because with the way most sound men EQ bass the bassist may as well be playing root notes with one finger. Mids are my friend. Not the scooped kind, either.

 

I have no doubt that you are a very good sound man, agedhorse. Other than your last post, however , there has only been one other "occasional" engineer post that he made any attempt at all to represent the bassist's signature sound to the audience. And he's a bassist. That's the sad reality of this thread. T-Broom's really nice, vintage tube head has been relegated to boat anchor duty.

[Hawkeye]

 

I'm left wondering what a Picasso would look like against a Monet if soundmen were sitting there telling them they knew what good paintings were, so they would take the canvas before the artists had the opportunity to paint them.

 

 

I can see agedhorses' side of the argument, but as a bass player myself I rarely hear a good bass mix from the majority of PA's that I've heard. It seems like there are at least 100 ways to get this wrong and I've heard about 3/4 of them.

 

Your soundman, even the good ones, are comparable to a "live producer". You give yourself over to this guy who says "Trust me" and hope for the best. My experience is that some have good ears and many do not.

 

I don't claim to be any shining example of the mixing art, but it seems to me if there weren't so many bad soundmen out there screwing things up on a regular basis, artists would have a bit of an easier time giving over their tone and trusting someone to faithfully reproduce it and all the others in the ensemble to the audience.

 

Just a little rant from someone who is at the mercy of the "happy amateurs" every week.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

But I am out in the audience. I'm always wireless. I've also gotten some board mixes. I'm usually disappointed to say the least. IME a soundguy wants thumpity thump thump thump, because by God that's what a bass is supposed to sound like. There's no point doing nice fill work above the money frets, because with the way most sound men EQ bass the bassist may as well be playing root notes with one finger. Mids are my friend. Not the scooped kind, either. I have no doubt that you are a very good sound man, agedhorse. Other than your last post, however , there has only been one other "occasional" engineer post that he made any attempt at all to represent the bassist's signature sound to the audience. And he's a bassist. That's the sad reality of this thread. T-Broom's really nice, vintage tube head has been relegated to boat anchor duty.

 

 

The issue is how to best represent bass in the PA, not what all or most of the soundguy's you've encountered have done to screw up the mix. It really wouldn't matter...mic'd cab, DI pre, DI post...what you plug the bass into if the soundguy isn't working with you and trying to represent your stage sound in the PA.

 

As a bassist and a soundguy, I'm way more sensitive to this than most bassists or soundguys. I've heard a lot of crappy mixes in the PA, but many of them also had a crappy stage sound, so it pretty much evens out. I've heard just as much "thumpity thump" from stage amps, so it's no wonder if many sound guys assume that's what you want out in the audience.

[agedhorse]

Maybe I learned a little more old school than others. I agree that the modern bass/kick in your face (over everything else) sound is not my idea of a good approach for most music... except where that is the band's concept of what they want.