Members betty john Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 hi there, i am new here - hope someone may be able to provide some information - thanks i would like some detailed information on speaker placement/direction/volume for a good onstage sound for guitarists with 4x12 cabs. eg. distances from speaker, different angles, angled cabs vs. straight... or links to discussion on this topic! thanks heaps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members picker13 Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 It's been said a million times before, but what's the need for a 4x12? A 2x12 is more than loud enough, as is a single. But if you must have a 4x12 for guitar monitor (on stage sound), keep the volume just loud enough for the guitarist to hear, angle the cab so that the cab is directed to the guitarist's head (and ears), and if possible, consider placing the cab at the side so that if the volume is too high (which it probably will be), the sound isn't directed at the audience and doesn't overpower the PA making mixing next to impossible and drowning out the vocals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stefanoa Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 Picker13 has got it down! I sometimes use 2 x 2x12 on a bigger stage, always pointed away from the crowd and where my head will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 We keep stage volume as low as possible. We rely on the PA for projection. Like the post above, I keep my amp on a stand and point it at my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danny (NS::U) Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 In my opinion: If the PA is decent, then point the cab in some upstage direction. It essentially makes the guitar amp and cab a dedicated stage monitor for that instrument, and can help make the sound in the audience more "even." (You end up with a less pronounced "hot spot" of guitar.) If the PA stinks, and you must point the cabinet at the audience to carry the sound, then I suggest putting it as close to center as you possibly can. (This is to minimize one half the crowd getting a mix that is very different from the other half.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hamer_Time Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 Good posts already........use a smaller cab or combo and angle it towards your head so you can hear yourself. If the monitors are less than sufficient, we will not put any guitar through at all and place our amps as sidefills to provide a little on stage volume for everyone......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 It's been said a million times before, but what's the need for a 4x12? A 212 doesn't sound the same as a 412 and doesn't look nearly as cool. It's not hard to control volume with a 412, in fact, it's a lot easier. We sidewash the amps and with a 212, it's really hard to get that all the way across the stage. With the 412 not only does we have the two top speakers pointing up at us (angled cab) but it's just got a bigger and meaner sound. When he's got a 212 or a 112 he's gotta have it cranked so we can hear it over the drums and junk. It kills the drummer with volume and me, guitarist, and singer can't hear {censored}. With a small combo, it'd be alright if only YOU needed to hear it. They just simply cannot cover an entire stage though without the help of stage monitors (I've yet to play a venue where they put anything but vocals through the monitors). Also, go figure, half stacks are a ton easier to move and care for than combo amps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GZsound Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 I played for five years in a band where we used the guitar amps as stage monitors, even having them face the players from the side and not pointing off stage at all. Let the PA carry the load and put guitars in the monitors if necessary for the other musicians. The idea is to give the soundman control over the sound and not have the stage volume be so loud a good mix is impossible. Of course, the huge number of musicians with hearing loss because of massive stage volume shows I don't have a clue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremendo Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 I also prefer the 4x12 sound I get with my current setup. It just works for what I do in my 3 piece. I use IEM's, so it's not for my stage volume or my sound either, but it does fill in better for our band. Anyway, we keep the volume reasonable with my slant 4x12 cabinet, but I do point it towards the crowd, especially on a big stage. The direct hit some get is not too loud and I try to make sure of that. The PA carries the guitar sound. I try to get it loud enough for a good sound, but not to blast the public. I run tube amps, 15 watts normally, output of 8 ohms into a 16 ohm 1960AHW cabinet with G12-H30 re-issues. It works without having to get too loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dravenzouk Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 It's been said a million times before, but what's the need for a 4x12? A 2x12 is more than loud enough, as is a single. But if you must have a 4x12 for guitar monitor (on stage sound), keep the volume just loud enough for the guitarist to hear, angle the cab so that the cab is directed to the guitarist's head (and ears), and if possible, consider placing the cab at the side so that if the volume is too high (which it probably will be), the sound isn't directed at the audience and doesn't overpower the PA making mixing next to impossible and drowning out the vocals. Gawd, I want you in my band. (I'm the bassist/soundguy) My current band has two guitar player's. No amount of logic, reasoning, advice, evidence, or experience can seem to get them to think like this. Neither will run anything less than a 4x12 ("my tone, my tone" even though their "tone" is constantly changing and never quite right). ONCE, I finally convinced them to just try having the cabs side stage pointing inward. There were other (unrelated) problems that night with the PA/sound and they blamed it all on the side placement of the amps - vowed never to even consider trying it again. The most bizarre thing is that one g-dude in particular absolutely refuses to consider angling the cab so that it is pointing towards his head instead of the back of his knees. Simply will not do it (or even try it). I have yet to understand his reasoning. And guess what? - at every show he complains that he can't hear his guitar (his amp is maybe 5 feet behind him). The funny (or tragic, I suppose) thing is that MY cab is a single 12" speaker. And I've got more than enough power and headroom to keep up. Indeed, I could overpower them if I wanted to. Could you please have a talk with the guitar guys in my band? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremendo Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 Dude, I don't want to say it but it sounds like it might be beyond just talking to them. Good luck though! Sometimes you have to do what works best for your sound, however un-popular the idea is. That's when you balance what you're doing and why you're doing it. Gawd, I want you in my band. (I'm the bassist/soundguy)My current band has two guitar player's. No amount of logic, reasoning, advice, evidence, or experience can seem to get them to think like this. Neither will run anything less than a 4x12 ("my tone, my tone" even though their "tone" is constantly changing and never quite right). ONCE, I finally convinced them to just try having the cabs side stage pointing inward. There were other (unrelated) problems that night with the PA/sound and they blamed it all on the side placement of the amps - vowed never to even consider trying it again. The most bizarre thing is that one g-dude in particular absolutely refuses to consider angling the cab so that it is pointing towards his head instead of the back of his knees. Simply will not do it (or even try it). I have yet to understand his reasoning. And guess what? - at every show he complains that he can't hear his guitar (his amp is maybe 5 feet behind him). The funny (or tragic, I suppose) thing is that MY cab is a single 12" speaker. And I've got more than enough power and headroom to keep up. Indeed, I could overpower them if I wanted to.Could you please have a talk with the guitar guys in my band? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 The 412 is best left at home. Bring a resonable amp and use it to fill the stage (if monitors aren't that great), otherwise just make sure you can hear it and it is not causing issues with the FOH. My guitards use modified Fender Supers, and they are on like 2 (if that). I can't imagine them turning these 1X12 combos up much more for any reason, but we mic everything through the PA, but even if we weren't, they wouldn't have to be at 3, guitar amps are both a beautiful thing (for the tone) and a horrible, ugly thing (for the volume and directionality)..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted October 11, 2007 Members Share Posted October 11, 2007 Gawd, I want you in my band. (I'm the bassist/soundguy)My current band has two guitar player's. No amount of logic, reasoning, advice, evidence, or experience can seem to get them to think like this. Neither will run anything less than a 4x12 ("my tone, my tone" even though their "tone" is constantly changing and never quite right). ONCE, I finally convinced them to just try having the cabs side stage pointing inward. There were other (unrelated) problems that night with the PA/sound and they blamed it all on the side placement of the amps - vowed never to even consider trying it again. The most bizarre thing is that one g-dude in particular absolutely refuses to consider angling the cab so that it is pointing towards his head instead of the back of his knees. Simply will not do it (or even try it). I have yet to understand his reasoning. And guess what? - at every show he complains that he can't hear his guitar (his amp is maybe 5 feet behind him). The funny (or tragic, I suppose) thing is that MY cab is a single 12" speaker. And I've got more than enough power and headroom to keep up. Indeed, I could overpower them if I wanted to.Could you please have a talk with the guitar guys in my band? Sounds like it may be time to start looking for a band that actually cares what the band as a whole sounds like rather than what they personally sound/look like. The lead player in my wife's band uses a 1x12 Fender and usually side washes it while the rhythm player hauls around a 4x10 Fender that we tilt to point toward her head most of the time. For the real small venues that we don't bring our PA for we will sometimes have the amps carry the house and the 1x12 does a much better job of even coverage as the 4x10 has a narrow brain dart of high frequency energy directly in line with it. We were playing a local outdoor festival last summer with a EAW line array rig and the leads father came up to me complaining that she wasn't loud enough in the mix. I was actually taking pictures this time and not mixing and when I sat down by him he was right, but only because he was directly in line with the rhythm players 4x10 and sitting in the second row. They had all turned up louder than normal to compensate for the big stage and to feel like rock stars rather than ask for themselves in the monitor and up close she was over powering a pretty loud high quality PA. Once you got out of direct line of her cab or far enough back it went away, but dead on and up close she was definitely having a negative effect on the mix. Good luck getting your band mates to listen to reason, Winston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted October 12, 2007 Members Share Posted October 12, 2007 hi there, i am new here - hope someone may be able to provide some information - thanks i would like some detailed information on speaker placement/direction/volume for a good onstage sound for guitarists with 4x12 cabs. eg. distances from speaker, different angles, angled cabs vs. straight... or links to discussion on this topic! thanks heaps What style of music you play? I mean if your doing country IMO a 4x12 would be "Overkill" BTW which is a killer metal band but if your doing metal then you got the right amp for the job if you got the right PA for the job. But the key is let your drummer and bass player cover the low end meaning don't scoop the {censored} out of your mids. If I use a e609 I just hang it in front of the top speaker because that's one less damn mic stand I got to carry along. If I do use a stand then I use a Heil PR30 and move that bitch around to I find a sweet spot. Funny thing my bottom left speaker on the 4x12 sounds the best thru the FOH usually a inch or two away from the grill but that's our Peavey 4x12 cab every cab has it's own sweet spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pharmboyjoe Posted October 12, 2007 Members Share Posted October 12, 2007 1) If you can't talk on stage over the volume of the amp/cab, then how the hell is anyone going to sing in tune? 2) A Fender Blues Jr is what I beg guitar players to buy....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members betty john Posted October 12, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 12, 2007 What style of music you play? I mean if your doing country IMO a 4x12 would be "Overkill" BTW which is a killer metal band but if your doing metal then you got the right amp for the job if you got the right PA for the job. But the key is let your drummer and bass player cover the low end meaning don't scoop the {censored} out of your mids. -alternative rock -and yes i definitely use mids and let let the bass player cover the low area thanks to everyone for the discussion, has been good reading Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted October 12, 2007 Members Share Posted October 12, 2007 1) If you can't talk on stage over the volume of the amp/cab, then how the hell is anyone going to sing in tune?2) A Fender Blues Jr is what I beg guitar players to buy.......Well, if you are talking on stage, you probably aren't talking into the mic, which eliminates your theory on "how are you going to sing in key". I don't care if you you bring a 5 watt combo with a 8" speaker or a full stack. They all have volume knobs on them and it is up to the user to adjust accordingly for a good onstage mix. As for the Blues Jr, that is about the last 15-20 watt amp I'd recommend for playing typical guitar rock on club stages. There are a lot of amps in the wattage and price range that sound really good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted October 12, 2007 Members Share Posted October 12, 2007 1) If you can't talk on stage over the volume of the amp/cab, then how the hell is anyone going to sing in tune?2) A Fender Blues Jr is what I beg guitar players to buy....... Ya you think Zak Wylde uses a Blues Jr. main thing is having the right tools for the job you wouldn't take a pocet knife to a gun fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted October 12, 2007 Members Share Posted October 12, 2007 This is why my guitar rig is solid state. I can dial in the same tone as my buddy with the tube Marshall but you'll never here me say " I have to turn it up to here to get that good tone". I run sound for a blues jam every Thursday and these guys bring in the Fender combos and get all pissy when I tell them to turn them down. " But it's only on 5, that's half way up!!!" Yeah, but everyone within 30 feet is going deaf and so are you're ankles. Too bad you're {censored}ing ears aren't on your ankles!!!! It's just boggling how some people that actually play music can be so damn stupid. It's taken me 6 months but I've finally beat them into shape and now the room doesn't start to empty half way through the night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted October 12, 2007 Members Share Posted October 12, 2007 This is why my guitar rig is solid state. I can dial in the same tone as my buddy with the tube Marshall but you'll never here me say " I have to turn it up to here to get that good tone". I run sound for a blues jam every Thursday and these guys bring in the Fender combos and get all pissy when I tell them to turn them down. " But it's only on 5, that's half way up!!!" Yeah, but everyone within 30 feet is going deaf and so are you're ankles. Too bad you're {censored}ing ears aren't on your ankles!!!! It's just boggling how some people that actually play music can be so damn stupid. It's taken me 6 months but I've finally beat them into shape and now the room doesn't start to empty half way through the night. Good work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wallypip Posted October 15, 2007 Members Share Posted October 15, 2007 This is why my guitar rig is solid state. I can dial in the same tone as my buddy with the tube Marshall but you'll never here me say " I have to turn it up to here to get that good tone". I run sound for a blues jam every Thursday and these guys bring in the Fender combos and get all pissy when I tell them to turn them down. " But it's only on 5, that's half way up!!!" Yeah, but everyone within 30 feet is going deaf and so are you're ankles. Too bad you're {censored}ing ears aren't on your ankles!!!! It's just boggling how some people that actually play music can be so damn stupid. It's taken me 6 months but I've finally beat them into shape and now the room doesn't start to empty half way through the night. If I bring you my guitar player and hold him down, will you beat him into shape too. He loves his bassman and it sounds so good to his ankles... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stevie j Posted October 15, 2007 Members Share Posted October 15, 2007 Last thursday night i had a guitarist who took his knobs off () and turned his amp up and put them back on so it looked like it was turned down to 1. I was mixing at the right of the room and his amp was pointing right at me, so all i got was a muddy mess and the rest of the room got fuzzy noise. I let him know it sounded crap and he'd have to turn it way down after the first song but he wouldn't listen, he turned his amp 'back up to 1.5' and swamped everyone. So I said to him its not my fault that it sounds crap and walked off stage giving the audience an 'its not my fault' look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted October 15, 2007 Members Share Posted October 15, 2007 My favourite thing to do with guitarists that crank their amps is to turn the amps around and put a mic on the speaker as per usual. They're still loud as hell, but at least they're beaming at a wall and not someone's face. I like to fold up a carpet and lean it against the wall where the amp points. This only really works well for closed-back amps though, open-backs still beam backwards a bit (here I'll put something behind it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted October 15, 2007 Members Share Posted October 15, 2007 It wouldn't work in pro situations, but maybe at the smaller rock rooms I can implement the 'suck light'.. Have a par 64 can with a really nasty gel on it (green and yellow combined?) and when a certain member is too loud, just point it right at their head, that way they can see that you are trying to get their attention, and the crowd will know whos making the sound suck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members axeman6969 Posted October 16, 2007 Members Share Posted October 16, 2007 My guitards use modified Fender Supers, and they are on like 2 (if that). I can't imagine them turning these 1X12 combos up much more for any reason, but we mic everything through the PA, but even if we weren't, they wouldn't have to be at 3, guitar amps are both a beautiful thing (for the tone) and a horrible, ugly thing (for the volume and directionality)..... GUITARDS! ! ! ! Hey wait. I'm a guitar player...... WTF, it's still funny..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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