What can I do without serious investment

[moody]

I have a working, reasonably versitile, good sounding and loud enough for my purposes PA. Setting up, lugging stuff and taking apart is not something I look forward to.

 

I am after suggestions for doing two things: making it more portable or making it quicker/easier to set up and tear down. Assume I know nothing (I don't but assume that). Everything I have fits (barely) in a 1990 Nissan Vannette.

 

I'll give a run-down of what I have:

Soundcraft M12 (soundcraft E8 backup)

4 power amps, 3 eq's and a reverb unit in 4-6 unit rack cases. All but one of the amps are 4 rack unit and very heavy. The rack units all have casters.

2 12" + horns mains (nice and light and portable)

2 15" folded horn subs (big and heavy, but on casters and can be pushed up stairs single handedly if absolutely necessary).

4 12" + horn monitors.

1 15" bass cab (I play bass for the band as well).

7 Par 56 lights (4 on a light stand, 3 on ground stands)

Associated cables in a couple of milk crates.

 

I have several 10" speakers lying around, I would consider gutting 2 of the 12" monitors and using the horns on a couple of smaller cabs (for vocals only). If I could figure it out I'd also consider not taking a bass amp on stage (running through mains and monitors only) but I don't know if the 12" monitors could handle it.

 

If I can do it for cheap I'd really like to get lighter amps, but I don't think it's going to be possible.

[moody]

PS, I realise this is a very open question, that's intended as I want whatever suggestions are on offer.

[kevinnem]

this is the trick isn't it, ... how do we do it all fast easy and cheap:)

 

For my company it is a matter of just thinking about how you work, and what you can do to the stuff around you to make that work faster. One concept we are going to try next show is that. IF cable is to be used in the same place every time, then that cabel will stay there, not in the cable truck.

 

For example we run NL4 to all our monitors , .. so we have monitors amps, in one place, the monitors, in another, and the cable to hook them up in yet a third place. So I am going to try keep about 4-6-8 NL4 cables in the back of the monitor rack.

 

For someone like you, maybe you should consisder soem sort of ramp to get the gear in to the truck faster and easier? Maybe you need to put wheels on stuff? Maybe you need to get a system where you can place non-wheeled item on the wheeled ones for the trip to the truck? May you just need a plan- you need to know the way it packs best in the truck, and you use THAT way every time so you no long have to thing about.

 

Another thing, on e the next show we do , I am going out to "observe" .. I will not be pushing cases , just watchign everything, see it all, and looking for solutions to make it faster.

[Zeromus-X]

 

I'll give a run-down of what I have: Soundcraft M12 (soundcraft E8 backup) 4 power amps, 3 eq's and a reverb unit in 4-6 unit rack cases. All but one of the amps are 4 rack unit and very heavy. The rack units all have casters. 2 12" + horns mains (nice and light and portable) 2 15" folded horn subs (big and heavy, but on casters and can be pushed up stairs single handedly if absolutely necessary). 4 12" + horn monitors. 1 15" bass cab (I play bass for the band as well). 7 Par 56 lights (4 on a light stand, 3 on ground stands) Associated cables in a couple of milk crates.

 

 

4U heavy amps? Yeah, lightweight amps would make a hell of a difference.

 

I'm in the same boat as you, I'm always looking for ways to simplify and speed things up. I'm the drummer, not the soundguy, but I've probably got as much (or more) equipment as our bassist/PA owner does. Here would be my suggestions:

 

1. Four wheel moving dolly. We got one from Sam's Club that has big inflatable tires and probably a 2'x4' surface. It's got a black textured grip top to it, and the handle that you use to push it folds down for storage. You could probably carry the monitors and the tops on one of these in one trip. Ours cost $40 bucks.

 

2. If the racks have wheels and you've got more than one person, can you either (a) consolidate into larger racks or (b) put cups on the top of the racks so that you can stack them and wheel in one tall rack?

 

3. If you're bringing your own PA, you know you can run bass through it... why bother with the bass amp? Bring a DI and throw it in your gig bag or case. Swap out one of those 12" monitors for a monitor that can handle bass running through it. Now you've eliminated one big amp anyway.

 

It really looks like the biggest problem is bulky equipment (4U amps, folded horn subs, etc). The "best" solution would be to swap out those boat-anchor amps for some XTi or PLX 2U amps, which you could stick all in the same rack and probably still cut your weight down. Replace those folded horns with a compact sub, maybe even a pair of compact subs on each side... if that Soundcraft will rackmount, get a rack that you can put the mixer on top and the poweramps/effects on the bottom... lights are always bulky but maybe swap out the seven Par cans for a few LED units. Get rid of the stage monitors altogether and you'll save on poweramp weight and on stage monitor weight/space; switch to wireless IEMs. If you can all use the same mix, it won't cost that much for one transmitter and a bunch of receivers!

[agedhorse]

Moody, I'm using your situation as an example and I am not bagging on you for what you bought ok?

 

This is a really good example of where the term "buy once, cry once" applies. I have taken more than my fair share of crap here (not from Moody) about buying better stuff, lighter higher performing stuff, more uniformity and a plan for how things will go together easily and without hassle. In the lonmg run it will be a lot cheaper than the mis-matching upgrade and constantly trying to improve/fix what you have thrown together. Doing something on the cheap usually ends up costing more, sometimes way more. Then there's the cost of transporting it about, hauling it into the venue, the added time spent setting the stuff up and troubleshooting the inevitable problems etc.

 

There is no simple, easy or cheap answer. I would recommend re-thinking your entire PA setup, spending whatever it takes to the gear and the interconnect system that it will take. This is one thing that seperates the good pros from everybody else. Sell whatever you can of the old boat-anchor stuff yo own and use that money as part of the upgrade. Unfortunately, I wouldn't expect you will get all that much for the amps. I wouldn't mess around with putting 10" speakers in 12" monitors or even screwing around with "upgrading" your speakers. If they don't work for you, look around for something that will, and is really an upgrade.

[BillESC]

This is a situation where a leasing company might come into play. They have programs where you can purchase 10, 20, 50K worth of gear for very little money down and finance the rest over a term that you select. At the end of the term you can either give them the gear back or pay one dollar and keep it.

 

For what you charge for one gig a month you can have a $ 20,000.00 up grade to your sound system.

[moody]

 

There is no simple, easy or cheap answer. I would recommend re-thinking your entire PA setup, spending whatever it takes to the gear and the interconnect system that it will take. This is one thing that seperates the good pros from everybody else. Sell whatever you can of the old boat-anchor stuff yo own and use that money as part of the upgrade. Unfortunately, I wouldn't expect you will get all that much for the amps. I wouldn't mess around with putting 10" speakers in 12" monitors or even screwing around with "upgrading" your speakers. If they don't work for you, look around for something that will, and is really an upgrade.

 

 

Sorry, long post warning.

 

No offence taken, This is what I get for not being willing to pay more than I have at any one time for something that will do the job. The amplifiers I have didn't cost me much to begin with and I don't really expect to get much for them if I do sell them (but probably more than I bought them for - they really were bargains - just massive in this day and age).

 

I have a lot of gear that is going to be sold off in order to fund upgrading (yamaha Aw4416 digital recorder, yamaha trb 6 string bass, lots of random bass cabinets etc.)

 

I am looking at doing this now because I finally have a workable PA together, completely. I don't have to be looking for a new mixer, extra monitor, mic, cable or mic stand just to be running now and can consider upgrades to what I have.

 

The plan at this point:

 

I currently have a 2 wheel trolley. The absolute first thing I'm doing before a next gig (early dec at this stage, we need to improve the repetoire first) is a 4 wheel trolley.

 

I am going to start cutting, re-sizing and adjusting cables to fit my situation. At the gig last night for example, I had coils of speaker cable and power cable down the back of the speakers. I know it's often needed but in some cases - where the amps are sitting on the subs for example - I really don't need 40 foot of speaker cable.

 

I need to get a short snake or two. Maybe 2 6 way snakes - one to the drums and one out the front for the vocals and guitar amps. I am still mixing from stage for the forseeable future so a longer or larger snake isn't an option.

 

I need to purchase a couple of long power boards (I currently have 3 4 way power boards all hooked together behind the mixer - a 10 way would be a lot easier. I need to figure out what I'm doing about getting power to lights as well - can I figure out some sort of splitter extension cable so that I only need to send one cable around the front of the band? PS, I have a lot of little M16 mini-pars that I set up around the drum kit and between the big par cans - the cables are getting a little bit everywhere. (the mini-pars are the one thing in my setup that is compact and portable - I'm really happy with them).

 

I will be racking the mixer in with a couple of eq's and making up a patch bay so that everything connects quickly and easily.

 

I'm trying to think what else I can do before replacing components. Currently the bass guitar cabinet I have is being used to elevate the drummers monitor, so while It's not really needed to hear the bass on stage or out the front it is serving a real purpose and I'd have to find a case or something to replace it with - maybe make up a small wooden crate for a couple of par 56's? The subs are also being used to hold the mixer and eq units, I'm going to look into just having a stack of power amps under the mixer.

 

Stream of consiousness rant over... I've probably forgotten heaps on things.

[agedhorse]

Draw things out and refine. When you put things on paper, the rediculous becomes obvious.

[moody]

 

For someone like you, maybe you should consider some sort of ramp to get the gear in to the truck faster and easier? Maybe you need to put wheels on stuff? Maybe you need to get a system where you can place non-wheeled item on the wheeled ones for the trip to the truck? May you just need a plan- you need to know the way it packs best in the truck, and you use THAT way every time so you no long have to thing about.

 

 

Think smaller scale - this is an in-van setup. It only barely fits, but it all goes in the van, the subs go up the front behind the seats as that's the only place that they will fit side by side (two subs take easily 1/3rd of my available space), everything else gets stacked up behind them. I think the bottom of my van is about 50cm, so a ramp isn't going to be needed.

 

About two weeks ago i put wheels on the sides of a couple of my amp racks (4unit and 6 unit) but it really doesn't go far compared to the massed speakers. I've got to figure out if the monitors can get wheels without compromising space and usability. Actually, maybe I should make a skateboard platform or two - 4 big casters on a little bit of wood, just shove the speaker on there, wheel it and bring back the skateboard for the next one....

[abzurd]

We had a pretty efficient setup to begin with, but have lost our band engineer for most gigs. He played the role of sound guy, light guy, roadie, repairman. Here are some things that have allowed us to cut our setup time as well as allow everyone to assist in setting up the system even though they may not really know what they're doing.

 

- Patch panels - one on the amp rack, one on the mixer rack

 

- Patch snake - runs between the amp rack and snake

 

- LABELS - Labeling EVERYTHING is fantastic. I even love it because I don't have to think, just plug in. Also allows me to hand a patch snake to another band member and they can hook it up without questions.

 

- Keeping your cables - All band members keep their XLR's, patch snakes, DI's. They come in the door with their own gear and leave with them at the end of the gig. Less stuff to haul with the PA and accountability that they have to keep track of the stuff themselves.

 

- "backup bag" - This houses extra gear we may, but don't usually need - mixer, drum module, cable checker, extra cables, adapter, wireless mic, extension - etc. Basically, everything brought into the venue initially will be used. If more stuff is needed it's readily available. To you're point about speaker cables, we've cut ours down and have a few couplers in case we need longer runs. The couplers and cables only enter the venue if needed.

 

Where possible, keep things organized - We have blue XLR's for lighting and a band member responsible for setting up the lights. He knows which cables to put in the lighting case during tear down. Our monitors go in bags and the monitor speaker cables go in the bags too. The guy responsible for setting up the monitors knows where/what cables to use to setup and also that he's responsible to get those cables back in there.

 

Assign tasks - If it's known what is your responsibility you'll do it, if it's just generally to "help out" then you don't necessarily feel obligated and certainly aren't motivated to work fast. Assigning also lets people know that setup for next show will only go as smoothly as how they packed up the last one. The guy setting up lights isn't going to wad the cables up in a ball at the end of the night if he knows he's the one that will be untangling said ball.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Think smaller scale - this is an in-van setup. It only barely fits, but it all goes in the van, the subs go up the front behind the seats as that's the only place that they will fit side by side (two subs take easily 1/3rd of my available space), everything else gets stacked up behind them. I think the bottom of my van is about 50cm, so a ramp isn't going to be needed. About two weeks ago i put wheels on the sides of a couple of my amp racks (4unit and 6 unit) but it really doesn't go far compared to the massed speakers. I've got to figure out if the monitors can get wheels without compromising space and usability. Actually, maybe I should make a skateboard platform or two - 4 big casters on a little bit of wood, just shove the speaker on there, wheel it and bring back the skateboard for the next one....

 

 

Yup, make everything roll, one way or another. Either a dolly or a hand truck. There are folding handtrucks that take very little space...look at marine supply stores. Here the marine versions cost $60, and if you can find one at Sears they're $30.

[BeatMasterPhil]

For FOH speakers I would suggest:

Tops: Yorkville U15

Lows: EAW LA400 horn loaded sub

 

I use 2 U15Ps with 4 EAW LA400s center clustered and it works great! Before I bought this system someone suggested it and I can't thank them enough!

 

You could probably buy the processor for the U15s and use the cross-over in that and it would work great!

Take Care!

[agedhorse]

 

For FOH speakers I would suggest: Tops: Yorkville U15 Lows: EAW LA400 horn loaded sub I use 2 U15Ps with 4 EAW LA400s center clustered and it works great! Before I bought this system someone suggested it and I can't thank them enough! You could probably buy the processor for the U15s and use the cross-over in that and it would work great! Take Care!

 

 

Yeah, except for the cheap part. Read the OP's first post, you might discover thatt he world doesn't revolve around your system. We are discussing a concept, not specific gear... oh and neither of those brands are much of a deal in Australia/New Zealand... in fact their cost would be staggering. Just a guess, but the EAW subs would end up being around $2k EACH.

[moody]

 

Yeah, except for the cheap part. Read the OP's first post, you might discover thatt he world doesn't revolve around your system. We are discussing a concept, not specific gear... oh and neither of those brands are much of a deal in Australia/New Zealand... in fact their cost would be staggering. Just a guess, but the EAW subs would end up being around $2k EACH.

 

 

I think they might be more than that usually, probably a little less at the moment because the Aussie dollar is really really strong. Upgrading cabinets is something that I really can't afford to do right now, plus, If there is one thing that i am very happy with both for effectiveness and weight it's my mains, they are budget Yamaha 12" (S12E I think) that I can carry both at once in a single load without a trolley. I know that there is far better out there but in the situation I'm in I won't replace those before I replace almost everything else.

 

Total current investment in subs and mains is $450 Australian, maybe $400 US and before the PA is earning it's keep I'm not going to be investing any more than that. The subs were the best value vs. quality vs. weight that I could find at the time and regardless of weight and size they are not that difficult to move around compared to the power amps and monitor cabs.