how to improve sound quality in my parents' bar?

[RadiationNation]

Ok, so...basically, my mom has a bar that's been open for about a year now and she's starting to book bands to play inside and is wondering what she can do as far as treatment to make it sound better inside--right now there's quite a bit of reverb and stuff. The layout looks something like this...

 

 

It's relatively big in size as far as bar goes because it was built inside my grandpa's big garage out in the country. Need a ladder to reach the ceilings and all of that...

 

Anyone have any suggestions? I've never really done this kind of thing before, so I wouldn't know. Thanks.

[agedhorse]

Suggestion... find a local consultant who deals with noise control issues. The "acoustics" for performance is not critical, you need to tame the reflected sound using absorbtion techniques. It's relatively straight forward for somebody who does this for a living and you will avoid all the (costly) pitfalls that amatuer "advisers" trial and error wild assed guesses will lead you. It will also help you avoid liability issues due to fire code issues, which are now very real. You don't want to put your mom's property at risk right?

[RadiationNation]

 

Suggestion... find a local consultant who deals with noise control issues. The "acoustics" for performance is not critical, you need to tame the reflected sound using absorbtion techniques. It's relatively straight forward for somebody who does this for a living and you will avoid all the (costly) pitfalls that amatuer "advisers" trial and error wild assed guesses will lead you. It will also help you avoid liability issues due to fire code issues, which are now very real. You don't want to put your mom's property at risk right?

 

 

Like I said, the bar is out in the country (in the middle of South Dakota), so I don't think I'm not sure I'll be able to find a consultant who deals with this type of stuff, and even if I did, he'd probably have to come from many hours away and charge me lots and lots of money. I know what you're saying, that in the end it'll cost me more in the long run to try and figure it out myself and I'll get worse results, but I really don't think it's an option. Thanks for the suggestion, though. I'll think about it anyway.

[agedhorse]

You don't know unless you inquire. There's all kinds of noise-acoustic consulting folks in industry, including the agricultural industry.

[RadiationNation]

 

You don't know unless you inquire. There's all kinds of noise-acoustic consulting folks in industry, including the agricultural industry.

 

 

Good point. I guess it doesn't really to ask around. Where would you suggest I start looking?

[agedhorse]

Try the closest big city yellow pages first

[RadiationNation]

Thanks.

 

Any else have any suggestions?

[Bud B]

Howdy,

I have played in lot's and lot's of bars!

The amount of reverb or what could be called a very lively room

is due to too many solid surfaces.

This can be due to tiled or solid floors, mirrors and or large windows

and even a lack of people!

Carpeted floors will help kill reverby or lively rooms.

Rooms that started out lively when empty will also deaden up more when it is full of people!

Many things including people can absorb sound / frequencies.

The Sub area has very L-o-n-g frequencies / waves and is probably not as problematic as mid to high frequency / waves!

 

I would imagine that your Moms bar is a big room with ceiling, walls and floors all Solid!

So much so, that the inclusion of people is still not enough to deaden the space!

 

In the last home that I was in I used the back room off of the pool as a Band room.

When we first moved in, there were tile floors and bare walls and reverberation like crazy!

I went to a local Carpet Barn that sells Carpet dirt cheap and bought a grey carpet to cover the floor...this protected the floor from the Drums, Amps, Cabs, tiles from chips etc..etc..

because we were renting the house but it also killed that lively floor!

Next came the walls..we set up in the room facing one large wall and the sound would bounce off of it and then back in our face to the wall behind us and so on and so on.

So I thought and thought about the problem and then went to Home Depot on a Saturday and got a great deal on a huge piece of really THICK blue carpet (about a $100.00) with a tight condensed weave.

I then bought six 2x4's, a box of drywall screws, four hooks and eyes and some black paint.

I went home and painted all of the 2x4's black and left them outside to dry overnight.

Sunday morning I got to work and sandwiched the carpet between the 2x4's, two at the top, the middle and the bottom.

In the ceiling I located the studs (16" on center) and screwed in the large hooks, with all of the hooks facing left (or right)

Next I had a couple of strong friends hold the carpet against the wall and the hooks so I could mark the top 2x4 where to screw in the eyes.

I then screw in the eyes (about 3" length) into the 2x4, the last step is the hard part..line up all the eyes with the hooks and hook on the carpet! It's free hanging on the wall!

The 2x4's on the back side of the carpet keep the carpet away from the wall,

you want that open air area so that the sound that goes through the carpet gets lost bouncing back and forth!

Checked out the room and that was the trick, dead city, a nice weekend project!

Next practice and the my fellow Band mates were very impressed with the room.

I did not need to do the wall behind the band because the carpeted wall in front of us was now absorbing the sound waves and they were not bouncing back at us!

It also helped keep the other part of the house be much more quiet if someone was sleeping!

I tell you this story to point out that you want to deaden the liveliness of your room.

Look at the wall that the band is facing, if it is the bar with lots of bottles and mirrors etc.. then try deadening the wall behind the band..anything to stop the waves from bouncing back and forth.

If you have tiled or solid floors well...have you ever thought of laying down some carpet!

The art of deadening a room is a lot of common sense, kill the hard surfaces!

My solution cost me about $200.00

 

I am now in a condo and I am thinking of putting a free floating wall in front of my walls...or maybe the carpet..when our lease was up and we had to move, because the owners sold the house, the new owners wanted to keep my carpeted wall because their son played music and it was going to be the party room.

It is I'm sure still hanging, it looked great at Christmas with light's attached to the front 2x4's!

 

Be creative and good luck....you can still call a professional but he or she is still going to have to treat your room somehow!

 

Rock on,

Bud

[ThrillHo]

O man, finally a bar that's concerned about acoustics.

 

In my opinion, you don't need to hire an expert, unless you're tuning the room, like for nice recording/mastering studios. You could easily mount rock wool or Owen Corning rigid fiberglass panels in these "microsuade" bags (The material is quite nice actually).

 

http://www.readyacoustics.com/index.php?go=products.proddetails?=RT424B

 

There's other companies that have similar products, the url doesn't come to mind.

 

If you could find an insulation retailer in your town, then you could save a lot on shipping the panels. I would assemble about 20-30 of these bags (4" thick) and it probably would run you around $40 per panel, or $800-1200 ( this is actually quite cheap). Ready acoustics also sells mounting brackets and stuff, but I've used decent-sized anchored screws or hooks. I recommend trying not to hang the ones on the ceiling as they move slightly.

 

If it's a smoking bar, the panels may absorb the smell, but then everything does anyway. You probably would have to cover the material with a fire repellant of some sort. Make sure you get dark colors so they age well.

 

The panels would go in first reflection spots, so along the wall behind the band, on the ceiling, pretty much just anywhere you can.

 

You're gonna have to spend a little money, but I think this would be highly beneficial with only 6-8 hours of work. I would love to play in a room with some decent absorption. The people in the bar will deaden the sound a little, but there's still a lot of nasty reflections that will unfocus the sound.

[Bud B]

Hi again,

When I look at your picture I also see that the band is in the corner and probably facing the lower corner behind the tables and stuff.

The sound waves are hitting in that corner then to the outer walls and causing a swirl of sound waves.

Go to a pool table and shoot a ball to one of the bumpers to to the left or right of the corner pocket, the ball will bounce from one bumper across the corner pocket to the next and then out to a side bumper, that's what your sound waves are doing!

It might be better to move the Band flatly against the back wall..or if the bar jutting out on that wall causes problems, possibly move the band to the lower wall (in the pic) facing the other wall with the bar that jutts outward.

Then treat the wall behind the band or the wall that the bar jutts on too,

so waves will be absorbed and not bounce back and forth.

 

Good luck,

Bud

[agedhorse]

Note that carpet on the wall is a violation of fire codes in every state in the nation (that I am aware of anyway). Regular carpet does not carry any flame spread rating and everything that you hang on a vertical surface or ceiling must be fire rated for the specific occupancy it's being used for. Each state (and even county) is different, but New York and Calif. are both pretty strict and hence most suppliers of certified materials will certify to the NFPA standard plus State of NY or CA fire marshall addendums.

 

Remember the "Great White" show in Rhode Island? 100 people died, the band's tour manager and the venue owners all did jail time, and lost pretty much everything they owned. The wrongful death suits are thick and heavy. All because of a poorly thought out acoustic insulation job done incorrectly and on the cheap by the owner, along with pyro stupidly and illegally used by the band.

 

Get professional help, it's not going to be that expensive.

[JaredMTFD]

Check the postings at any local music stores. Most companies and consultants will have business cards and posters visible for guys like you. I live out in the country as well, but I know where to look. Talk to *knowledgeable* tech guys at your local stores (if they exist) and see who they recommend. Maybe find some clubs or venues in the area who commonly have decent gigs, find out who they used or recommend.

 

I, like you, am a "do it myself" guy, but as Andy (Agedhorse) pointed out, it is a big risk to take in the lawsuit-happy world that we live in.

[kevinnem]

 

Note that carpet on the wall is a violation of fire codes in every state in the nation (that I am aware of anyway). Regular carpet does not carry any flame spread rating and everything that you hang on a vertical surface or ceiling must be fire rated for the specific occupancy it's being used for. Each state (and even county) is different, but New York and Calif. are both pretty strict and hence most suppliers of certified materials will certify to the NFPA standard plus State of NY or CA fire marshall addendums. Remember the "Great White" show in Rhode Island? 100 people died, the band's tour manager and the venue owners all did jail time, and lost pretty much everything they owned. The wrongful death suits are thick and heavy. All because of a poorly thought out acoustic insulation job done incorrectly and on the cheap by the owner, along with pyro stupidly and illegally used by the band. Get professional help, it's not going to be that expensive.

 

 

 

not to mention that carpet is really not going to work anyway, consider what freq the carpet even become effective???? maybe 2KHZ? not good.

 

Really, what is it we are trying to do here, IF it is a big room, and full of people, I can't thinkthe accoustics would be that bad?.. maybe we just need to up grade the speakers.?

 

I would not be suprised to find that the goal here is something other then better accoustics, .. and accousitical treatment is not teh only solution.

 

Kev.

[agedhorse]

There are certified carpet type materials that are just fine, but not available at your local hardware store for cheap.

 

Carpet type material may be ideal acoustic treatment depending on what is being addressed. I use it often in conjunction with other materials, especially in areas subject to physical contact.

 

There's a lot more to solving the problem than "winging" it. Anybody in the acoustics industry can take a look at space and for your purpose give a rule of thumb solution in 5 minutes that is likely to be better than the best you could possibly do on your own.

[gruvjack]

I recall an after hours club in southern Illinois that was a glorified metal barn. Walls up to 25ft covered with carpet all around. That had to be a major building code violation but acoustics were satisfactory. BTW, where in SD are you at? I was in Brookings for 4 years.

 

V.

[twostone]

Check out Ethan Wiener's web site he's the acoustic guru he has designs for acoustic treatments using the 705 panels and also another diffuser for the ceilings is Sonotubes cut in half. Sonotubes are round tubes used for concrete forums and cost dirt cheap can be installed very easily and I agree move the band out of the corner. BTW Ethan is a acoustic consultant.

[lifeloverwg]

 

Check out Ethan Wiener's web site he's the acoustic guru he has designs for acoustic treatments using the 705 panels and also another diffuser for the ceilings is Sonotubes cut in half. Sonotubes are round tubes used for concrete forums and cost dirt cheap can be installed very easily and I agree move the band out of the corner. BTW Ethan is a acoustic consultant.

 

 

Actually it's Winer. His site is the best I've seen for a good tutorial on acoustic treatment especially for anyone considering a DIY approach. http://www.ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html

 

Winston

[ThrillHo]

 

Get professional help, it's not going to be that expensive.

 

 

In regards to having a professional inform you of regulations, I think that's very important, especially since it's a business open to the public. But hiring an acoustics engineer is not really necessary if you just going to put up some absorption panels. Hell, if you just post your room dimensions on acoustics forums, or email any of the acoustics retailers, they'll give you free advice

[agedhorse]

Ahhhh, free advice by those SELLING you the product might cost you a LOT more than hiring somebody who is looking out for your interests. That's like having the fox guard the hen house.

 

For

[walkerci]

Ahhhh, free advice by those SELLING you the product might cost you a LOT more than hiring somebody who is looking out for your interests. That's like having the fox guard the hen house. For

 

Amen!

 

This advice transcends all industries and all time.

 

Follow the money. That explains 99% of human behavior.

[agedhorse]

Amen! This advice transcends all industries and all time. Follow the money. That explains 99% of human behavior.

 

Yup, be aware ofthis rum a nd you are well on your way to protecting yourself from the wolves.

 

Disclaimer, not all the advice would be necessicarily bad but the potential for poor information benefitting the seller is more likely.

[lifeloverwg]

 

Or maybe upgrade the talent? No doubt having the "stage" in the corner is the worst... and no doubt if 80% of the clubs in NV and CA are equipped with Behringer rigs, then I'd suspect a converted shop-bar in SD would have either a Behringer PA, or no PA. We have a casino nearby. Liz and I go there for buffet dinner occasionally. The casino has a lounge near the buffet area... actually, you pretty much gotta walk through the lounge from the buffet area to freshen-up. The lounge almost always has evening live entertainment... in the form of assemblages of musicians passing themselves off as bands... supposedly dance bands... probably dance bands that pass for "professional" club circuit bands... probably similar to the average talent available in SD? I would suspect our local casino is one of the better gigs in the area. I'd say the acoustics of the casino lounge is as good as good gets. I've maybe witnessed 20 or so of these "bands" at this casino in the past 5 years or so. I wouldn't walk across the street to see a single one of these bands. They all have been awful. Absolutely horrible. Typically the bands just clear the place out. Maybe that's why clubs hire these "bands"... is just to clear the customers out of the place? I'd guess 50% of the problem is the band's PA gear... which is virtually all a hodge-podge of the cheapest of cheap Behringer, Nady, Kustom and the ilk... and piles of processing. 50% of the problem is the "talent" and the talent's inability to play as a band and play under the capability of their crap PA's. 0% of the problem is the room.

 

 

Casinos are becoming one of the more reliable gigs out there in that there are a lot of them, and they have plenty of money to pay. At least the decent ones. Although I question the value of the audience and the quality of those gigs. Most of the ones in our area have four or five TV screens mounted above or around the stage

and the clientel are there to first drown their sorrows, second check the score of the game and lastly to hear the entertainment. Nothing worse than playing for people that don't want to hear you just about no matter what your talent level. One of the big ones on the Utah/Nevada border just put in one of the best medium sized rooms in our area I hear so I will have to check it out when they get an act that interests me. So far it's been all former A listers for the crowd a little older than me or just to formerly top 40 for my tastes.

 

Do the bands really have to provide PA at the Casinos in your area Mark? That tells you a lot about how much a venue values the band. And, what kind of acts do they hire? Typical cover bands or do they ever book new acts passing through that play originals? Just curious as we have considered trying some Casino gigs, but the few acts I have ever seen have all been cheesy ass bad cover bands on their way down from nowhere, which we are not. Maybe your idea of them wanting to clear the lounge has merit....

 

Winston

[agedhorse]

I think much of this depends on the state the casino is in and the type of casino. In CA, there are some very very wealthy and successful casinos and they all provide PA or hire it in depending on the type of act. Also, down here, there are a lot of lounges (

[WynnD]

Set the stage up so the band plays parallel to the bar and is never tempted to place any equipment in the corner. (Especially the drums.) If there isn't a stage, build a solid one away from the corner and never aimed at the bar. (You'll want drink orders filled correctly.)

 

Have the manager control the level of the bands. Loud is always worse in bad acoustics. A DB meter is a cheap investment.

 

All the sound absorbing advice is good. For trial and error you can set up a PA with music and place blankets around on the walls or where ever.

[agedhorse]

Another thought, you might be able to find some good used heavy (24oz+) velour theatrical drapes that have a current fire retardant certificate at a somewhat reasonable cost. An acoustic consultant would advise you as to suitability and where to place them to get the best results.