Best PA System for Big Band?

[cebulaj]

Somehow I've found myself "assigned" the task of researching and

recommending a new PA system for my wife's all women big band (the

logic is I use an amplifier, so I know something?!) I've started

reading on-line stuff and catalogs, but I specific suggestions and straight advice.

 

There are usually 17 instrumetalists and one vocalist. Sometimes the

venue does not have a sound system, in which case they use their own

4 channel Fender Passport (?) (not sure about the wattage); but in outdoor

venues (and they play a lot of those), the sound evaporates within

fifty feet of the stage--the unamplified stuff is louder and clearer.

They run two mics to the saxes and two to the brass. The vocalist

uses one of the sax mics, and the trumpets and trombones shuffle

theirs. The bass, guitar, and piano depend on their own amps.

 

Because I have the catalog, I've been looking at Carvin's XP Systems

3 and 4. I think 8 channels would be enough, but I like the idea of

more wattage if I could get it. The Yamaha reviews I've looked at

have all been by rockers, who complain Y's systems aren't loud

enough. Later today I'll be looking at some other brands on-line.

 

Another issue is transport. The group leader can tote the Fender in

the back seat of her car and carry it to the stage, so the

replacement ideally wouldn't be much more of a hassle.

 

Also, the group does not have a sound person. After the PA is set up,

they do a quick sound check and that's it until the gig is over. So

the replacement pretty much would have to let them set up and let it

go.

 

Given all this, what are some concerns I should address? Any specific

products? And need I add that money is an issue--I'm thinking that if

the band pays for it (the leader owns the current gear), they won't

want to go over $1000.

 

Thanks in advance,

 

John

[moody]

Does the band sound good with no amplification?

[Special J]

What kind of/size venues are they playing?

[cebulaj]

They sound great (although some incarnations are strongerthan others--there's probably a core group of 7 or 10 who are pros and semipros that can carry the rest; but all the women are strong players.

 

The application I describe is the area where they need help. There's a big difference between their sound indoors vs. outdoors. One of the younger players posted a clip on Youtube (Chicago Outskirts), but it was recorded with a cell phone (and my wife was in Europe, so she missed the gig).

[Special J]

If they don't play outdoors all that often, and the passport system works OK indoors, they may want to hire out the sound for the outdoor shows. I'm just saying $1000 doesn't get you a lot.

[cebulaj]

Depends; they had 500+ at an outside gig last week; inside gigs vary a lot. They'll be playing in a restaurant as the "opening act" for another big band in a week or two and will probably have 200 in the audience.

 

The issue I felt is playing outside. There were walls around and behind them last, but the sound didn't echo. So I'm thinking ouside open areas.

[Gregidon]

Honestly I'd try to find a local PA provider that you can partner with. The hassle of owning a PA system and setting it up every time is a huge pain. Not to mention having someone out there to adjust levels is very helpful. The investment in gear that it will take to play to 500 people is not worth it to use once a month.

 

Good luck and have fun!

[jwlussow]

Where about in DuPage? I live in Elmhurst. Do they do big band stuff? I love that music. I played trombone with the Elmhurst College Jazz Band back in the 80's. My system is available if we aren't using it. I have PRX512s over MRX518s.

 

You probably want to mic drums and bass (very important with jazz) so I would suggest at least 16 channels. I also suggest subs because there is a lot of the higher freqs in that music so the low end needs to balance the sound.

 

I suggest powered speakers and a passive board.

[tlbonehead]

Somehow I've found myself "assigned" the task of researching and recommending a new PA system for my wife's all women big band (the logic is I use an amplifier, so I know something?!) I've started reading on-line stuff and catalogs, but I specific suggestions and straight advice. There are usually 17 instrumetalists and one vocalist. Sometimes the venue does not have a sound system, in which case they use their own 4 channel Fender Passport (?) (not sure about the wattage); but in outdoor venues (and they play a lot of those), the sound evaporates within fifty feet of the stage--the unamplified stuff is louder and clearer. They run two mics to the saxes and two to the brass. The vocalist uses one of the sax mics, and the trumpets and trombones shuffle theirs. The bass, guitar, and piano depend on their own amps. Because I have the catalog, I've been looking at Carvin's XP Systems 3 and 4. I think 8 channels would be enough, but I like the idea of more wattage if I could get it. The Yamaha reviews I've looked at have all been by rockers, who complain Y's systems aren't loud enough. Later today I'll be looking at some other brands on-line. Another issue is transport. The group leader can tote the Fender in the back seat of her car and carry it to the stage, so the replacement ideally wouldn't be much more of a hassle. Also, the group does not have a sound person. After the PA is set up, they do a quick sound check and that's it until the gig is over. So the replacement pretty much would have to let them set up and let it go. Given all this, what are some concerns I should address? Any specific products? And need I add that money is an issue--I'm thinking that if the band pays for it (the leader owns the current gear), they won't want to go over $1000. Thanks in advance, John

Here's my small outdoor setup. Of course, it is a little over $1K.

[jwlussow]

Here's my small outdoor setup. Of course, it is a little over $1K.

 

Just a little, I'll bet

 

 

 

 

 

Oh, and GO WHITE SOX

[lasangeles]

I have been in a similar situation. I play with a student orchestra with comp, brass, woodwind, song and dance. We can't hire, we have a very tight budget, we need gear that's lightweight, easy to set up, works well and can be controlled from stage by inexperienced people.

 

The problem is that it cannot be done.

 

What I did was to try and make the best of the situation. I bought a Mackie DFX 12 and two dB Technologie 210:s. With this we amplify song, piano, the occasional soloist and a tad of guitar and woodwind. Since we have no monitors we struggle a lot with placement of the speakers so that piano and song can hear themselves without destroying the ears of someone.

 

The idea is that we will expand the system over time. Soon we will buy a monitor and a small sub. Later on we may get better speakers and use the ones we got now as monitors, then a better mixer, another sub etc. etc.

 

Our audience is not of the same size but still we have to push our system really hard. If you really need to buy a system for $1000 I would suggest that you buy a decent mixer like a Yamaha MG or a Peavey PV (size according to needs) and the best active speaker you can afford. After a while you may be able to buy another speaker. If you don't want to struggle with speaker placement you need a monitor for the singer but you can buy a small cheap one for now and get a better one later on.

[tlbonehead]

Just a little, I'll bet Oh, and GO WHITE SOX

Well, if we keep self-destructing against crap teams like the Mariners, you'll have no problem! Did you win tonight?

[jwlussow]

Nope. We can win some series but we can't sweep (unless it's the Cubs). You guys are tough at home and your schedule looks pretty good. Back to music, I ended up catching a game at the Hump when I drove to MN to pick up an Akai MG1412 I won on eBay. What ever happened to the flashing milk carton?

[xmlguy]

I'd suggest:

 

Peavey PV 14 mixer

 

And two of these:

 

Thump 15A demos $300

 

The PV 14 and pair of Thumps are a large upgrade over the Fender Passport system. Sell the Passport and use the money to buy a lot more mics, cables, and stands.

[WynnD]

I like the powered stereo mixer that can handle 4 ohm loads on each channel. Then get two speakers suitable for indoor work. When moved outdoors, either rent or buy later an additional two speakers. Outdoors will still seem different, but the extra db should work OK.

 

Outdoors, four speakers evenly spaced out across a straight line will provide deep coverage in a single straight line. (I place them about 30' from each other.) It's an interesting effect that works well for covering a rectangular space in the long direction without blasting in any location. (The Bose towers work the same way. Hearing few speakers close and hearing all the speakers at a distance.)

[dedmeet]

Ok, my $0.02.

 

Run far, far away from Carvin, Tapco, and Behringer gear.

 

1. Sell the Passport system. Honky midrange and less booty than an bulimia society swimsuit party. Blech.

 

2. Get a good/decent mixer with at least 12 mic channels (Peavey FX, A&H, Yamaha and others; look at used boards, if you can test them). Ones with some built in effects and EQ are nice.

 

3. Get two good 12-inch two way powered speakers and put them on speaker stands (QSC HPR122i is excellent as is the Yorkville NX55P). A powered sub would also be nice.

 

4. For larger gigs, hire a sound guy, or rent some big stuff for FOH and use your powered cabs for monitors.

 

5. Invest in some good mics, stands, cables, and some cases to keep it all in.

 

Good luck!

 

 

Here's my small outdoor setup. Of course, it is a little over $1K.

 

 

tlbonehead,

 

Looks like a decent setup, but unless those horns have 45x45 degree dispersion, you are probably getting enough comb filtering to part your hair at 100 paces!

[rwhealey]

I completely agree with dedmeet. They won't get the sound they want for $1k and will end up spending more and more down the road.

 

I'd get an Allen & Heath MixWiz and some QSC powered speakers. That'll run you a bit under $3k and you could then get a few mics. You'll probably end up with SM57s (or equivalent in the price range) for mics, but for the type of music, SM81s for the instruments would really be the right choice.

[tlbonehead]

Ok, my $0.02. Run far, far away from Carvin, Tapco, and Behringer gear. 1. Sell the Passport system. Honky midrange and less booty than an bulimia society swimsuit party. Blech. 2. Get a good/decent mixer with at least 12 mic channels (Peavey FX, A&H, Yamaha and others; look at used boards, if you can test them). Ones with some built in effects and EQ are nice. 3. Get two good 12-inch two way powered speakers and put them on speaker stands (QSC HPR122i is excellent as is the Yorkville NX55P). A powered sub would also be nice. 4. For larger gigs, hire a sound guy, or rent some big stuff for FOH and use your powered cabs for monitors. 5. Invest in some good mics, stands, cables, and some cases to keep it all in. Good luck! tlbonehead, Looks like a decent setup, but unless those horns have 45x45 degree dispersion, you are probably getting enough comb filtering to part your hair at 100 paces!

They are 45x60 for the mid and the high horn, and no we don't.

[dedmeet]

 

They are 45x60 for the mid and the high horn, and no we don't.

 

 

Ok, that's pretty impressive. What brand and model are those cabs?

[richardmac]

So you want something small, not too heavy, that sounds better than a Fender Passport, that can throw sound more than 50 feet, and costs less than $1,000. I agree with lasangeles - that cannot be done. You can't have all 5. So you have to prioritize. You could put together a decent little system using Yamaha Clubs, but they're going to be heavy. If you go with any powered speakers on the market, they're going to be heavy. When I say heavy I mean 40 pounds or so. Sound guys don't consider that heavy. 200 pounds to them is heavy. But a person who is used to an 18 pound Fender Passport might find a pair of 40 pound speakers heavy.

 

The closest system you could build to what you want, I think, would use Peavey PR speakers. They're relatively light, they throw sound outdoors halfway decently. They sound... acceptable, maybe, if you know what you're doing. They sound better than most of the the Passport systems. But in the long run you will not be satisfied with their sound. The good news is that they don't cost a fortune. $169 for the two way twelve inch, and $199 for the two way 15 inch. New. Even hauling around these light speakers, though... well, the 15's are sorta big. Could two fit in a backseat? Yes. But they'll take up the whole backseat. That's why I say you can't have it all. A pair of powered Mackies will sound much better than the Peavey's, but you can't afford them, and they're heavy.

 

If weight is a serious problem, consider the powered Yamaha EMX312SC or EMX512SC - they only weigh about twenty pounds... extremely light, for a powered mixer... and they sound pretty good.

 

EV makes some good lighter speakers but they're out of your price range.

 

My best suggestion - Yamaha EMX512SC powered mixer and a pair of Peavey PR12's, and some inexpensive stands, and two cables. And even that is going to be slightly over $1,000. You might be able to get it for an even grand if the salesperson cuts you a deal on it. Even better, you could try to find the stuff used. I don't see a lot of EMX mixers selling used, though.

 

The biggest advantage is that the 512 is a nice mixer/amp, 500 watts per channel (into 4 ohms,) and the speakers are only a little over $300 for the pair, so you won't feel bad when you dump them and get better speakers down the road.

 

You could save a little cash and get the 312 instead of the 512... it's still a nice mixer. But for outside work for your circumstances, the 312 might not be loud enough.

 

I don't like the idea of buying one powered cab and then eventually buying another... one cab is not going to cut it for your scenario. I do like the idea of buying one powered cab and then another and not using them until you have both.