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  • #16
    The point it to bond the neutral to ground and earth it as effectively as possible. In a dry environment, every other reference to earth will also have a higher impedance so the net isn't all that different anyway. The desire is that in the event of a fault, the generator frame and the earth and antying attached to the earth will have close to the same potential.

    The alternative in this instance is to use a GFI on all load ciruits. Then the earth ground is not (as) necessary (for safety).
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/FMIC/JAM Industries Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

    Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

    Comment


    • #17
      You were a lucky guy.

      I've done stupid things several times and it turned out ok... I just didn't know how stupid they were or how lucky I was at the time. I do now.


      It not stupid and it wasnt just one time. I live on solar power and deal with generators on a daily basis, the thing that takes the most load is long power cords and/or lots o wiring. We connect it with a short extention cord and dont turn up more than half way. I know what a generator that is overloaded sounds like, this didnt have any problems.

      It could be that Honda is really lowballing their power estimates or that some of the equipment is really over rating their power(the 450w bass amp is a Behringer and we all know that there's a thing called "Behringer watts" for a reason)

      I wouldnt recommend doing it, but im just saying that it worked out ok for us, but i tested it before playing the show just to be sure.
      www.lastchanceisrock.com


      Brand new cd ...And Then It Rains now available
      here>>> http://cdbaby.com/cd/lastchance2

      And also on iTunes and Napster


      Rogue Analog Delay $25 shipped





      Good traders: KLeeneX, Solcat, DARKMETL/,Procreatur,TheAmazingBlob,SnoMan97,Steve the Hero, NITROHOLIC, jrcorp,madryan,iblastoff,Doctor Morbius,teletaylor

      Bad trader ontariomaximus(Randy Fay of Phaez Amps)

      Comment


      • #18
        There should be some Honda application notes regarding required grounding/bonding of portable electrical systems. They fall under the "seperately derived" systems of the National Eloectrical Code as well.



        Interesting... The DuroPower Genny we have (which is a honda Engine, made by Briggs & stratton) say it's Neutral is Bonded to Ground. Hmmm... Confusing.. One would think there would be some sort of standard here.

        So in essence, if I do all Sound on One Genny (Duropower 7kW), Ground it with a Set of Grounding Rods (3) driven as far into the Playa as I can (4-6'), kept wet, and then Bond the Neutral and Ground from the EU3000i Genny (Used for Lights), I should be good. All I need to know now is How to do this to code, so I can improve safety from what I already have.

        Difficult stuff, this electricity.

        Todd A.
        My Rig:

        EAW LA325's (2)
        EAW LA400's (4)
        QSC PLX 3402 (2)
        QSC PL1.8
        QSC RMX 2450
        Ashly ProTea 3.24c
        Ashly ProTea 4.24G
        EAW LA212 Monitors
        JBL PRX-512M Monitors
        Whole Lotta Cables

        Comment


        • #19
          Yes Todd, and this is the ground/earth reference for everything used at the stage.

          Honda may have a GFCI built into their output, negating the bonding requirement for seperately derived systems but it's still a good practice IMO.
          -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
          Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/FMIC/JAM Industries Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

          Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

          Comment


          • #20
            It not stupid and it wasnt just one time. I live on solar power and deal with generators on a daily basis, the thing that takes the most load is long power cords and/or lots o wiring. We connect it with a short extention cord and dont turn up more than half way. I know what a generator that is overloaded sounds like, this didnt have any problems.

            It could be that Honda is really lowballing their power estimates or that some of the equipment is really over rating their power(the 450w bass amp is a Behringer and we all know that there's a thing called "Behringer watts" for a reason)

            I wouldnt recommend doing it, but im just saying that it worked out ok for us, but i tested it before playing the show just to be sure.


            If the extension cords took the most load, you would end up with a smoldering cable. The cable is responsible for some of the loss.

            What you are not seeing is what is happening to the voltage regulation (including overshoot) of the generator under dynamic conditions. The equipment sees this too and some conditions can damage the equipment. You just aren't aware of what may have been happening internal to the generator that could endanger the audio equipment attached to it.

            Turning it up "1/2-way" has no bearing on how much power is drawn by the system. It just means that you need twice the drive signal for full power. Another common misconception.
            -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
            Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/FMIC/JAM Industries Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

            Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

            Comment


            • #21
              Agedhorse, the bright side is if he damages his Equipment maybe he will buy a real bass amp next time.

              Comment


              • #22
                Agedhorse, the bright side is if he damages his Equipment maybe he will buy a real bass amp next time.


                I will struggle with not commenting on this
                -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/FMIC/JAM Industries Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

                Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

                Comment


                • #23
                  Yes Todd, and this is the ground/earth reference for everything used at the stage.

                  Honda may have a GFCI built into their output, negating the bonding requirement for seperately derived systems but it's still a good practice IMO.


                  You think adding GFCI to all stage power is a good idea as well? Seems to be on surface. And Yes, Absolutely all grounds on stage lead back to the Genny Grounding Rods. Nothing is floating, and I do not permit any Cheaters whatsoever. I gave a bunch of lectures and have often been seen as a bit of jerk on that front... But I'll take the criticism- in fact happy, so long as the person criticizing me is alive and well to do so.


                  and FYI, Main genny isn't a Duropower...it's a Powerboss. I got confused by becasue I have a 3kW Duropower Propane Genny... that died a very quick death out there.


                  Lastly... a question for everyone... The Powerboss Genny has an NEMA L14-30. The Genny is capable of 120/240. I've not used this connection, instead I have 4 10Ga. Regular Extension cords. But I would prefer to run that 30amp feed to the amp rack. I'm trying to understand (and the manula isn't clear..) exactly how the power is sent dwon the lines..

                  I get that there are 2 hot lines, each at 120v, a neutral, and ground. The manual states that it can provide the following:

                  "This receptacle powers 120/240 Volt AC, 60 Hz, single
                  phase loads requiring up to 3,500 watts of power at
                  29.1 Amps for 120 Volts; 7,000 watts of power (7.0 kW) at
                  29.1 Amps for 240 Volts.The outlet is protected by a
                  rocker switch circuit breaker."

                  Now, assuming I buy something like a Furman ACD-100, and ofcourse with the understanding that I have only 29.1amps @ 240 (58.2 @120), would this be recommended? Am I on the correct path? Attach the 250 service to the Furman and I have 3 20Amp Circuits? I'm checking to see if I'm getting this correct or not.

                  Thanks,

                  Todd A.
                  My Rig:

                  EAW LA325's (2)
                  EAW LA400's (4)
                  QSC PLX 3402 (2)
                  QSC PL1.8
                  QSC RMX 2450
                  Ashly ProTea 3.24c
                  Ashly ProTea 4.24G
                  EAW LA212 Monitors
                  JBL PRX-512M Monitors
                  Whole Lotta Cables

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    GFCI is not a bad thing, but some amps can cause false tripping due to EMI filtering, especially if you have a large number of devices on a circuit. Each one contributes to mains leakage.

                    The L14-30 would feed a distribution panel that breaks out the hot circuits via branch breakers into typical load circuits with a common neutral shared ACROSS phases. This is typical of how all power distribution is accomplished.
                    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/FMIC/JAM Industries Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

                    Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      GFCI is not a bad thing, but some amps can cause false tripping due to EMI filtering, especially if you have a large number of devices on a circuit. Each one contributes to mains leakage.

                      The L14-30 would feed a distribution panel that breaks out the hot circuits via branch breakers into typical load circuits with a common neutral shared ACROSS phases. This is typical of how all power distribution is accomplished.


                      OK, This is where my understanding gets hazy... as far as practical approach goes. Does the Furman unit accomplish this? I *think* it does, looking for comfirmation.

                      Tx,

                      Todd
                      My Rig:

                      EAW LA325's (2)
                      EAW LA400's (4)
                      QSC PLX 3402 (2)
                      QSC PL1.8
                      QSC RMX 2450
                      Ashly ProTea 3.24c
                      Ashly ProTea 4.24G
                      EAW LA212 Monitors
                      JBL PRX-512M Monitors
                      Whole Lotta Cables

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        What you are not seeing is what is happening to the voltage regulation (including overshoot) of the generator under dynamic conditions. The equipment sees this too and some conditions can damage the equipment. You just aren't aware of what may have been happening internal to the generator that could endanger the audio equipment attached to it.



                        Wouldnt the circuit breaker of the generator trip if i was taking to much load?

                        Turning it up "1/2-way" has no bearing on how much power is drawn by the system. It just means that you need twice the drive signal for full power. Another common misconception.


                        Hmm, then why if i plug in my amp at my house my Trimetric meter,which has a function to tell how much power is being drawn, it only reads half the power being consumed when my amp is at noon?

                        Agedhorse, the bright side is if he damages his Equipment maybe he will buy a real bass amp next time.


                        Its not my amp, i have no say on what my bass player buys.oke:
                        www.lastchanceisrock.com


                        Brand new cd ...And Then It Rains now available
                        here>>> http://cdbaby.com/cd/lastchance2

                        And also on iTunes and Napster


                        Rogue Analog Delay $25 shipped





                        Good traders: KLeeneX, Solcat, DARKMETL/,Procreatur,TheAmazingBlob,SnoMan97,Steve the Hero, NITROHOLIC, jrcorp,madryan,iblastoff,Doctor Morbius,teletaylor

                        Bad trader ontariomaximus(Randy Fay of Phaez Amps)

                        Comment









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