Members RoadRanger Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 I've had one of these for a few years mostly using it with boards that don't have internal effects. I want to get a rack-mount (aka no-wall-wart) version but the specs of Alesis's rack-mount effects are rather crappy? This little guy has 24 bit conversion (48ks/s) with 28 bit processing and their rack mount stuff seems to be 18/24 bit . I fired it up at practice last night and it just sounds incredible on Chorus/Room 1 . I could just double-stick tape it to one of my rack units so the face peeks out the front but thought I'd ask if anyone else has swapped out their Picoverb for a rack-mount unit that was as good or better? Did I mention that this thing sounds awesome ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 I think they all sound pretty similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 Alesis stuff is pretty good for what it is. The Pico doesn't have the parameter adjust though where the nanoverb does. I usually gaff tape the wall wart to the power conditioner (or powerstrip gaff taped to a blank rack panel mounted on the back of a rack). Zip tie power cables together and zipties audio too... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 If you don't want to get a rack tray (I have some for sale locally, you may as well order one since shipping will be more than the tray) you can alway use stick back velcro tape. Works wonders and lighter than a rack tray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 BTW, they all use a wall wart, rack mount or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 27, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 The Pico doesn't have the parameter adjust though where the nanoverb does......but the PicoVerb runs more "bits" than the NanoVerb - 24/28 vs. 18/24 . I've seen reviews saying you can tell the difference - not sure if it is true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 i dont think it will make much difference in a live situation. i occasionally run a 16 bit lexicon live and it sounds as great as any reverb i ever use, maybe better than some. not sure the bit rate of spx90's but i use those quite often and no issues with low bit rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 The processing bit rate and depth, plus conversion bitrate are for all intensive purposes marketing numbers these days. I have worked and designed extensively with these chipsets and the algorithms (software) are by far the most important component to the sound of the effects. This is where Alesis had a big lead on the industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 27, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 not sure the bit rate of spx90's but i use those quite often and no issues with low bit rates.I've got the manual in front of me - 31.25ks/s and an advertised bandwidth of 20hz-12khz . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 I've got the manual in front of me - 31.25ks/s and an advertised bandwidth of 20hz-12khz . That's just about right. Nothing wrong at all for the intended application, which is for effects generation. When writing effects software, one of the most important parameters for realistic efefcts is the early reflection LPF, which generally starts around 8-10kHz. You don't want fx response up too high because that's not what the real thing sounds like. Then there's multiple rolloffs that very quickly attenuate the high freq. after the initial reflection. This is a good example of where specs. mean nothing regarding how a unit sounds or works in the real world. What's important is that the folks writing the effects understand for you, and in this case Yamaha and Alesis are unquestioned leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 27, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 That's just about right. Nothing wrong at all for the intended application, which is for effects generation.I agree for reverb type effects. I often run a short delay (doubler) on vocals and I like that to have the same frequency response as the source material. 12k is just too low for my comfort . I'm sure I'll fire up the old SPX90 to see how it sounds. Also gettin' an old Furman rackmount mechanical reverb . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 28, 2009 Members Share Posted February 28, 2009 Even for doubling vocals, if the delayed signal has the same response as the initial signal it will tend to interfere. Again, it's normal to roll off the HF response to get a doubled signal to fit into the mix. It helps fatten up the vocal without siblinance artifacts. When dealing with vocals, the natural vocal tends to roll off normally also, so excessive extension can create issues that otherwise wouldn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 28, 2009 It helps fatten up the vocal without siblinance artifacts.Interesting. I suppose as long as you're mixing the SPX90 effect in via an aux return and not using it on an insert you still get the above 12.5K stuff. I'm assuming the SPX90 doesn't have an analog "dry" path for mixing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members frankiefeedback Posted February 28, 2009 Members Share Posted February 28, 2009 Interesting. I suppose as long as you're mixing the SPX90 effect in via an aux return and not using it on an insert you still get the above 12.5K stuff. I'm assuming the SPX90 doesn't have an analog "dry" path for mixing? Effects are usually returned through a stereo (or mono) channel strip on a mixer. This way you can EQ the effects, send a small amount to the monitors if you want and have fingertip control of the return via the fader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 28, 2009 Members Share Posted February 28, 2009 Even inserted, the dry mix path is generally full bandwidth. It's the way it's done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 28, 2009 Effects are usually returned through a stereo (or mono) channel strip on a mixer. This way you can EQ the effects, send a small amount to the monitors if you want and have fingertip control of the return via the fader.Yah, that would be nice but I'm trying to stay within a "rack width" mixer for now and need all 16 channels for the stage. At least most of these little guys let you assign a return to a pair of subs so I'll probably do that for the PicoVerb so I can use the subs's faders for it . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 28, 2009 Even inserted, the dry mix path is generally full bandwidth. It's the way it's done.Makes sense . However the block diagram of the SPX90 shows everything going through A/D-D/A and the "balance" is digitally controlled so I guess I might check it out on the 'scope when I hook it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 28, 2009 Members Share Posted February 28, 2009 The ADA conversion is generally close enough to full bandwidth, that it's not the bottleneck anyway. Depending on the filters and pre-emphesis, that could have a dry signal path of 18-20kHz at -3dB. I'll have to look at the service manual, the info should be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 2, 2009 Members Share Posted March 2, 2009 Looked at the service manual and the ADA conversion is ~12.5kHz which is not a problem for pro audio since it's specifically designed to be used with a wet only output for pro audio applications. This is because at the time it was introduced, it was a very expensive piece and not intended for inserted or serial use except for some very specific applications. The 10kohm input impedance is the giveaway. So in the recommended (and typical) pro audio application, the dry path through the console would be full bandwidth, and that would be mixed with the lower bandwidth effects only (wet) signal. The 12kHz bandwidth is plenty high for the effects algorithems that are in use, the LP filtering on the tapped paths is quite a bit lower than that. My recollection was foggy, it's the bypass signal that goes through the analog electronics (not a true bypass) but not through the ADAC's. For inserted use, the dry path is indeed limited by the ADA conversions, but that would have been an unusual application, perhaps gtr or keyboard between a preamp and power amp. You also have to remember that the large 2" HF horns of the time were limited to the 12-14kHz range as well. In fact, I'll bet a lot of forumite's hearing rolloff is quicker than the SPX-90. A lot of very well respected recordings and a lot of good concerts were made using the SPX-90 and it's cousins (90-II, 900, Rev-7), and an awful lot of really crappy recordings have been made with the "cool {censored}". The common denominator in the good recordings is... a good engineer and good material/band. If the engineer knows their stuff, the equipment is pretty secondary to the overall project quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.