Members stevesherbert Posted May 22, 2009 Members Share Posted May 22, 2009 i've always loved queens of the stone age, but i gained new respect for them after hearing some live clips of them from the big day out concert series, especially after hearing how terrible so many other bands (bands i really like as well) sounded live at the same concert (some are different years, i admit). check out a few of these clips. imo queens sound way WAY better. the bass especially, but the guitars, drums and vocals all sound so much more polished and make the other bands look like amateurs. At the Drive-In (i LOVE the bass sound on relationship of command - where did it go?) System of a Down (the vocals are all over the place and the bass sounds out of tune or something)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQMXILiuhKY Deftones (what AWFUL sounding guitar and bass tone! plus chino is out to lunch for most of this song. are the deftones always this terrible live? i was going to see them this summer, but after this clip, maybe i'd rather stay at home)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtWKtqWXW6U&feature=related Queens of the Stone Age (wow! now THIS is a great live sound. These guys were bang on for this entire show.) so my questions for the pros on here are: why do you think qotsa sound so much better? how can i make sure i don't sound like the deftones live? is it the players? queens are definitely more seasoned than the other bands, but the other guys have been around for a while, too. is it their equipment? they're using a mesa 400 and ampeg v4bs, which kick serious ass. is it the mixing job? different years, could be different guys doing it i guess. is it their level of drug/alcohol intake? all of those bands are pretty into partying i hear. is it because the queens bass player uses a pick? would that clean up the bass sound and make it sound less out of tune? it is the hired guns doing backup guitar? is it a combination of these things? anything else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IsildursBane Posted May 22, 2009 Members Share Posted May 22, 2009 Every one of those sounded like ass; some just more so than others. Some of it is that they're probably just not good live bands. In the studio, you've got lots and lots of time to massage every little bit of everything. Where did these mixes come from? Where they board mixes or were they mixed off a separate split in a truck somewhere (or even in a studio after the fact)? They sound like board mixes. Mixing for a crowd of 20K is not the same as mixing for a cd. Some of it could be that the engineers sucked. -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted May 22, 2009 Members Share Posted May 22, 2009 Every one of those sounded like ass; some just more so than others. Some of it is that they're probably just not good live bands. In the studio, you've got lots and lots of time to massage every little bit of everything. Where did these mixes come from? Where they board mixes or were they mixed off a separate split in a truck somewhere (or even in a studio after the fact)? They sound like board mixes. Mixing for a crowd of 20K is not the same as mixing for a cd. Some of it could be that the engineers sucked.-Dan. Queens sounded to me like there was something to work with. The rest of them... I dunno... Could have been challenging at the desk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IsildursBane Posted May 22, 2009 Members Share Posted May 22, 2009 Queens sounded to me like there was something to work with. The rest of them... I dunno... Could have been challenging at the desk. Yeah, it was definitely better than the others, but not amazing by any means. I wonder how much of that drum sound was coming through the vocal mics. I can see the hi-hat at the beginning, but I can't hear it. Another thing to keep in mind is that YouTube does some really awful things to audio. -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stevesherbert Posted May 22, 2009 Author Members Share Posted May 22, 2009 i'm not sure, but i imagine that these mixes are tracks from the board that have been remixed after the show for the video. i agree that none of them sound perfect, but the fact that they are from the same stage is my attempt to somewhat control that variable. what surprises me is how {censored}ty professional bands can get away with sounding live. i'm coming at this from more of a player's perspective, so i'm wondering how to give the sound guy or girl what they need to make a good mix. what were the queens doing that the other bands weren't? i understand that being too loud onstage can be a problem, but i don't really see how this would have that much of an effect outdoors. while i don't really care for the deftones guitar tone, why did it sound so much crappier live than on their records? what about the bass? is it the amps? the technique? does playing with a pick make a difference? i was thinking that maybe because there is more 'sag' from a plucked string, it would sound more out of tune, i dunno. any other no-no's (or yes-yeses) from these (or any other vids)? cupping the mic: no. being super wasted: no.killer amps: yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted May 22, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 stevesherbert, were you at these events, or are you just listening to the YouTube clips? You really can't judge live sound from the tapes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted May 22, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 i'm not sure, but i imagine that these mixes are tracks from the board that have been remixed after the show for the video. i agree that none of them sound perfect, but the fact that they are from the same stage is my attempt to somewhat control that variable. what surprises me is how {censored}ty professional bands can get away with sounding live.i'm coming at this from more of a player's perspective, so i'm wondering how to give the sound guy or girl what they need to make a good mix. what were the queens doing that the other bands weren't? i understand that being too loud onstage can be a problem, but i don't really see how this would have that much of an effect outdoors. while i don't really care for the deftones guitar tone, why did it sound so much crappier live than on their records? what about the bass? is it the amps? the technique? does playing with a pick make a difference? i was thinking that maybe because there is more 'sag' from a plucked string, it would sound more out of tune, i dunno. any other no-no's (or yes-yeses) from these (or any other vids)? cupping the mic: no. being super wasted: no.killer amps: yes! The extent that live sound varies seems more pronounced these days because studio recordings sound so much alike, and that's not necessarily good. The mistakes and imperfections add to the reality of a recording just as they do to a live performance. Why does live sound come out crappier than a studio recording? Because a live show is one take. It's not in a totally controlled, perfect acoustic environment. It's not recorded one track, one instrument, at a time, and layered onto the master after being massaged and trimmed and plucked and pruned. Stage volume matters both outdoors and indoors. Whatever the vocal mic picks up that isn't vocal sound will adversely affect the entire mix. While there are fewer reflections in many outdoor stages, there is also the the problem of wind noise, and any ambient distractive noises such as planes flying over, etc. In all cases, killer amps a re PITA for the sound guy. Keep volume low. Repeat that and make it your mantra, and your live sound will improve dramatically. Let the sound system do the heavy lifting, and know that only you care about your guitar tone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stevesherbert Posted May 22, 2009 Author Members Share Posted May 22, 2009 no, i wasn't at those events - i wish! i guess i'm surprised that the bands would allow such crappy sounding recordings to be broadcast. in these situations, who typically has the right of ownership to the recordings - the copyright holders of the music, the makers of the video, or the venue? does the owner of the video production have any responsibility towards the band and their record label in terms of production quality? could they get sued for crappy mixing? i understand how and why a live recording sounds worse than a studio recording. what i'm trying to understand is why live recording A sounds so much better than live recording B, when they were both recorded on the same stage with presumably similar equipment and staff, mixed by the same company and then both uploaded to youtube. by killer amps i mean killer tone, not wattage of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TimmyP Posted May 22, 2009 Members Share Posted May 22, 2009 I listened to the QofSA track. As that was said by the OP to be the best of the bunch, I did not bother to listen to any of the others. It sucked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted May 22, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted May 22, 2009 by killer amps i mean killer tone, not wattage of course. I had to mention that because you might not believe how many arguments have ensued with guitarists who simply can't get "their tone" without cranking an amp to 11. You're way ahead of the curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danny (NS::U) Posted May 22, 2009 Members Share Posted May 22, 2009 i'm coming at this from more of a player's perspective, so i'm wondering how to give the sound guy or girl what they need to make a good mix. I'll throw in my two cents on this part of the conversation: Don't rely on technology to solve non-technological problems. Treat your practice PA as the best case scenario, not the worst. If you want lots of vocals in the monitors, the first step is to sing loudly, and develop your voice for clarity. Also, get up close and personal with the mic. If everybody in the band has to sing, make sure that they actually can sing. (It seems that a number of bands I run into just have to have a mic on everybody, but most of the people involved can't get much more than a whisper out of their mouths. This makes for tons of gain on the mics, which mostly just picks up stagewash - and pushes the system towards feedback.) Get amp tones that are neither too muddy nor too bright. Also, if it isn't dead easy to distinguish each musician's part without a PA, having a PA will not necessarily fix the problem. When it's your turn for a solo, give yourself a boost. This is extremely helpful if the technician hasn't worked with you before. Try to figure out what's too loud, and then turn that thing down. (As opposed to figuring out what's not loud enough, and trying to turn that up.) In general, if you sound like you want to sound without a PA, it shouldn't be too hard to make that sound come out of the PA. If what you sound like naturally is nothing like what you want the audience to hear, it may not be possible to achieve - even with tons of great PA gear, and a solid operator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted May 22, 2009 Members Share Posted May 22, 2009 Things like this are usually multi-tracked and re-mixed later on, or mixed in a truck on site. It's close to impossible to judge how a concert sounded from a youtube vid. Remember, a recording is only as good as it's source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted May 22, 2009 Members Share Posted May 22, 2009 Deftones are typically pretty on-point live, but keep in mind their bassist has been in a coma for almost six months now, and they just recently started touring again to raise some more money for him... they're probably still not running full force right now. Chino has never been a great live singer for their heavier songs, because he's usually running around or through the crowd, or climbing the rafters, or jumping through guitar amps, etc, etc. He's got a lot of energy up there, and it definitely affects his singing. SOAD has always been awful live, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IsildursBane Posted May 22, 2009 Members Share Posted May 22, 2009 Deftones are typically pretty on-point live, but keep in mind their bassist has been in a coma for almost six months now, and they just recently started touring again to raise some more money for him... they're probably still not running full force right now. Chino has never been a great live singer for their heavier songs, because he's usually running around or through the crowd, or climbing the rafters, or jumping through guitar amps, etc, etc. He's got a lot of energy up there, and it definitely affects his singing.SOAD has always been awful live, IMO. These videos are all several years old. -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stevesherbert Posted May 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted May 23, 2009 danny's reply re: singing loudly is right on. i'm a LOUD singer, as in i almost don't need to be miked for you to hear me, so my vocal mix is typically pretty good, even with a half assed PA. it's always funny when the other singer complains "my mic isn't working. something's wrong", so i go over there and belt into his mic, and yep, something's wrong - your singing sucks. re chino's antics: while i like a lead singer to be entertaining and have a lot of energy, i draw the line at the point where their singing suffers. what impresses me is the ability to run around and do all that crap and still be able to nail your vocal parts. at least stay behind the stage monitors so you can actually hear how badly you're missing your notes. p.s. i'm not judging how the concert sounded, i'm judging how the video sounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted May 23, 2009 Members Share Posted May 23, 2009 SOAD has always been awful live, IMO. Oh, really now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted May 23, 2009 Members Share Posted May 23, 2009 They're not singing anywhere near in key, which I suppose is kinda their thing, the guitar parts are quite often wrong, and unless Serj is just standing still, he's off. Besides, using a "live video" shot specifically for TV/DVD with multiple camera angles and I'm guessing there's at least a decent amount of processing done to the sound, is quite a bit different from someone shooting video of them at a live gig. Cool stage set though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stevesherbert Posted May 24, 2009 Author Members Share Posted May 24, 2009 i've noticed that a lot of the off-keyness seems to happen when a singer does a lot of switching between high screaming and low melodic stuff, especially with SOAD and the deftones. i imagine this type of singer is a sound engineer's worst nightmare. how can someone like this make their vocals easier to mix both out front and in the monitors? i've seen maynard from tool use 2 different mics: one 'clean' and the other distorted. is this a good idea? or is a low melodic voice simply not loud enough to cut through the wall of drums and amp noise onstage? or is that style of singing just that much harder to pull off live? p.s. i feel pretty bad for serj (SOAD's lead singer) sometimes. i bet it's hard to sing in key when your guitarist is flubbing every other note. i feel like an old fart for saying this but sufferin jesus, every once in a while can't you just shut up, stand there, and play yer damn guitar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members robertfoshizzle Posted May 25, 2009 Members Share Posted May 25, 2009 Oh, really now? Whew, some of those guitar parts sounded pretty rough. I like the band, but damn, that's bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members robertfoshizzle Posted May 25, 2009 Members Share Posted May 25, 2009 As far as that ATDI video goes, that was right before they broke up. Cedric and Omar (lead singer and lead guitarist) were almost surely completely blown out of their minds on drugs and there was a lot of tension in the band. In the beginning, Omar completely misses his cue and plays the beginning lead part like 2 beats off. The rhythm section of ATDI was always spot on, but Cedric and Omar, despite being considered the two most talented members of the group, often really screwed up their live sound. That said, they were also very entertaining to watch on stage, so they made up for a lot of their sloppiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members robertfoshizzle Posted May 25, 2009 Members Share Posted May 25, 2009 In fact, if you look at the ATDI video at around 1:59, you can see Jim Ward clearly looking at Cedric and Omar in disgust. Sadly, you can sense the tension in a lot of their later live stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stevesherbert Posted May 25, 2009 Author Members Share Posted May 25, 2009 what i like about cedric is that he manages to pull off all the crazy running around stuff and still hits his notes. maybe it's because he doesn't do a lot of switching between ranges/timbres in the course of a song and his voice is pretty high (some would say piercingly high) so it cuts through. omar's performance in this clip is terrible, tho. i think a guitarist really needs to pick his spots when it comes to rockin out, because as a rhythm player, if you're off time, the whole band sounds like crap. -10000000 to guitards who can't keep it together onstage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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