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  • We need a dedicated monitor for our keyboardist - Adding to house's monitors?

    We're getting quite frustrated with venues around here, that don't have enough wedge monitors. Four of the five of us sing, so all three out front use the front row wedges. But our keyboardist keeps getting screwed. Either because the front monitors cannot be pulled back there to let him hear his or our voices, or they CRANK him in the monitors and it causes feedback elsewhere on stage. OH! I FORGOT! Or my bass feeds back cuz he's cranked so high and my rig reflects off the back wall and bounces straight into his mic! That one was... um.... fun. Yeah. We'll call it fun.


    So we wanna buy a monitor.

    Now.

    Do I get a powered monitor? Or do I get an 8-ohm enclosure? And then a 25-ft Speakon cable and 25-ft 1/4" cable velcro'd together, just in case.

    I worry, that if we bring an extra monitor and plug it into the end of their daisy-chained monitors, we'll drop the load on the monitor amp (whatever piece of ancient crap it may be) and pop that amp. I also worry, that they won't be able to give us a monitor signal from their stage wiring to run to a powered monitor. Get a Y-cable and pimp the return feeds before it reaches their power amp, maybe, but that's a tedious time-consuming setup in a world of 45-minute setlists and 15-minute changeovers.

    Gimme some feedback or experiences. In-ear monitors will have to wait a bit longer.
    "Understanding that sentence meant he wasn't much of a chess player." - Abzurd

    Winner of MYSTIC FX'S Most Metal Face, Early '09 Award

    Eden WT550B, D212XLT-4 times two, D210XLT, SKB US Roto Rack 4U, USA-made X2 XDS-Plus, Korg DT-7 tuner, Tobias Killer B5, Ibanez Prestige SR1005EFM, world-famous custom rack mounted CUP HOLDER! For my BEER!

  • #2
    Hmmm...there shouldn't be a need to crank the keyboards in the vocal monitors if the keyboard player has his keyboard amp sufficiently loud. And the bass cranking his amp, well ain't that a perennial problem. Time for a huddle.

    The experts here can correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you would want all the monitors to be more or less the same, just like how you want all of the vocal mics to be the same to reduce feedback.

    If you have a graphic EQ for each monitor (or feedback eliminator) to ring out feedback, then it might not matter as much to have identical wedges. I use sabine Graphi Q's for each monitor mix to get rid of feedback.

    Anyway, getting back to the keyboard player's monitor. I play keyboards when I'm not the sound guy, and I switched from traditional keyboard amp to a Mackie SRM450 as my keyboard monitor. We didn't have an elaborate stage monitor setup with a separate monitor console, but I did use a submixer for the keyboards (I had 3 keyboards on stage). With that, I was able to Y off the vocal monitor mix into my submixer and feed the send going to the SRM450 that was my monitor. Weird set up, but it worked like a charm.

    Comment


    • #3
      i've considered doing something similar. a friend of mine in another band has a cool (don't laugh now) crate powered moniter. 250watts 12" with a horn in the middle. it has its own EQ and 1/4" and XLR ins and outs. we just run an extra aux channel to it and use it for and extra monitor usually.

      I was thinking about getting one or two of those, or something similar, and run my vocal mic directly into it, then XLR out to the second for the drummer and then to the house PA. personal control over of volume and EQ, but no mix....my concern in this situation is noise, and EQ problems once its gotten to the house. a noisy buzzy hissy mess? Do you know how much the signal would be effected passing through?

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      • #4

        I was thinking about getting one or two of those, or something similar, and run my vocal mic directly into it, then XLR out to the second for the drummer and then to the house PA. personal control over of volume and EQ, but no mix....my concern in this situation is noise, and EQ problems once its gotten to the house. a noisy buzzy hissy mess? Do you know how much the signal would be effected passing through?


        From my experience I would not recommend doing that. First, you'd be adjusting the mic levels before the FOH console. That's a no-no. The mic preamp on that Crate is probably not as good as the one on the FOH console (sound quality, headroom, etc.) You'd be EQing the mics before the FOH console. That makes it difficult for the sound engineer -- maybe he will need to "un-EQ" what you EQ'd.

        Do you need to be able to totally control your own monitor mixes on stage (meaning relative levels of each source in a particular monitor mix), or do you just want to adjust the monitor volume on stage?

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        • #5
          I would go with a powered speaker. I think you would be able to run into the powered speaker and then back out to the monitor amp with a full-range signal if he needed to share a mix. You would need a mic cable providing that the inputs on the monitor amp were xlr. It may depend on what powered speaker you buy.

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't think you all are interpreting the question properly. The place he plays doesn't have enough monitors for the keyboard player to hear the vocals properly. He's asking about buying his own monitor to add to the house system so that the keyboard player can have a speaker in front of him too.

            I would think you'd need to talk to whoever runs that system and see what he suggests. The answer really depends how it's set up there.

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            • #7
              GCDEF:

              Pigs can fly. They can even sing.

              Who said anything about reading???

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              • #8
                I don't think you all are interpreting the question properly. The place he plays doesn't have enough monitors for the keyboard player to hear the vocals properly. He's asking about buying his own monitor to add to the house system so that the keyboard player can have a speaker in front of him too.

                I would think you'd need to talk to whoever runs that system and see what he suggests. The answer really depends how it's set up there.



                Top-shelf slapshot, there goes the water bottle! SCORE!

                Vocals, folks. Plenty of keyboards from his ancient and KILLER Peavey 15" combo amp. He needs his vocals back there. He's usually set up parallel with the drum riser, so the three of us out front have enough room to run around like the lunatics we are.

                I understand that I should go talk to the venue and their sound guy. Problem is... we play a dozen places around Detroit! We wanted to come up with the most flexible, plug-n-play idea that would work.


                What if.... he ran his mic into a combo amp like ANOTHER keyboard amp, then gave a line out or a DI out to the house mix? Unplug their mic, plug that into a combo or self-powered monitor, then out of that amp into the house's mic cable?

                Do powered monitors or powered PA speakers normally have a pass-through? Like, for parallel-daisy-chaining monitors together? Or would we need a mic, a mic preamp of some sort, then the powered monitor, then the mic cable to House PA? Are there particular powered wedge monitors I should definitely look at to invest in, over others? I'd rather we invest properly once, instead of budgeting this little concept. So going two or three steps up the price ladder would be worth considering. Throw me quality options.

                NO NADY MONITORS! Yeah I read that other thread...
                "Understanding that sentence meant he wasn't much of a chess player." - Abzurd

                Winner of MYSTIC FX'S Most Metal Face, Early '09 Award

                Eden WT550B, D212XLT-4 times two, D210XLT, SKB US Roto Rack 4U, USA-made X2 XDS-Plus, Korg DT-7 tuner, Tobias Killer B5, Ibanez Prestige SR1005EFM, world-famous custom rack mounted CUP HOLDER! For my BEER!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Use a transformer isolated mic splitter then you can give FOH a normal mic signal and do whatever you want with the other output .
                  http://www.audiopile.net/products/Electronics/MST-103_mic_splitter/MST-103_cutsheet.shtml

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think the main problem is being avoided here. Are you really only playing places where there are 3 monitor mixes? If not, where is the 4th mix at on stage? If there's a 4th mix, why can't it be moved?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Get a Horizon (or equal) MS1 https://www.allprosound.com/catalog/productdetails.asp?fprodid=681&item=Horizon%20MS-1

                      And a active monitor of your choice.

                      This will allow the keyboard player to plug his mic into the MS1 which will give you two line outs (1 for the active monitor, 1 for FOH)

                      You could possibly just get away with the line thru on most active monitors but I feel more comfortable with the MS1 for splitting the signal.
                      The only drawback is all the keyboard player will have is his vocals only in his monitor.
                      https://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/VP...54678147927641

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Top-shelf slapshot, there goes the water bottle! SCORE!

                        Vocals, folks. Plenty of keyboards from his ancient and KILLER Peavey 15" combo amp. He needs his vocals back there. He's usually set up parallel with the drum riser, so the three of us out front have enough room to run around like the lunatics we are.

                        I understand that I should go talk to the venue and their sound guy. Problem is... we play a dozen places around Detroit! We wanted to come up with the most flexible, plug-n-play idea that would work.


                        What if.... he ran his mic into a combo amp like ANOTHER keyboard amp, then gave a line out or a DI out to the house mix? Unplug their mic, plug that into a combo or self-powered monitor, then out of that amp into the house's mic cable?

                        Do powered monitors or powered PA speakers normally have a pass-through? Like, for parallel-daisy-chaining monitors together? Or would we need a mic, a mic preamp of some sort, then the powered monitor, then the mic cable to House PA? Are there particular powered wedge monitors I should definitely look at to invest in, over others? I'd rather we invest properly once, instead of budgeting this little concept. So going two or three steps up the price ladder would be worth considering. Throw me quality options.

                        NO NADY MONITORS! Yeah I read that other thread...


                        If all he wants is his vocals, then a powered cabinet should work. I haven't seen one without a pass through. A lot of them have built in mic preamps so they'll take a mic input directly. I use a Yorkville NX25P. That or something similar would be one approach. If you need other vocals or instruments from the board, again, that really depends on how the system you're attaching to is configured.

                        Is there some reason you think the dozen places you play would have the same monitor problem?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think the main problem is being avoided here. Are you really only playing places where there are 3 monitor mixes? If not, where is the 4th mix at on stage? If there's a 4th mix, why can't it be moved?
                          I suspect they're playing joints with three monitors on one mix - two mixes if a really swanky joint. That's kinda typical when playing the "bottom feeder" circuit .

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                          • #14
                            I think the main problem is being avoided here. Are you really only playing places where there are 3 monitor mixes? If not, where is the 4th mix at on stage? If there's a 4th mix, why can't it be moved?


                            Drum monitor. That's usually the 4th mix.


                            Most stages are prepared for four-guy rock bands. Not exactly an elaborate 5-piece prog metal band with one guitarist needing 3 channels alone, or a keyboardist with three keys, sound sampler and vocals. Or hell, even sound guys skilled enough to balance four voices singing in unison!
                            "Understanding that sentence meant he wasn't much of a chess player." - Abzurd

                            Winner of MYSTIC FX'S Most Metal Face, Early '09 Award

                            Eden WT550B, D212XLT-4 times two, D210XLT, SKB US Roto Rack 4U, USA-made X2 XDS-Plus, Korg DT-7 tuner, Tobias Killer B5, Ibanez Prestige SR1005EFM, world-famous custom rack mounted CUP HOLDER! For my BEER!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              it seems to me that your best bet would be to focus on having your monitors at your four vocal locations. If your drummer is not a vocalist, sorry but he slides a slot down the list. Now, the problem to overcome is handling your stage volume so that your 5th member who does not have a monitor can still handle the stage volume and can hear him/herself.

                              Benefits to this are that you'll tighten up as a band because you'll be forced to control your stage situation (not saying that it's out of control right now, just not pairing up well with your performance scenarios).

                              There's really no lose in this situation. You'll get some extra practice in while your working on volume levels and you might be out the cost of a speaker cable if you are having trouble getting that extra wedge to your Keyboard location. (Ie. Buy one to facilitate the problem so that you can get what you want.)

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