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Quick start - Peavey pv14 (you guys were amazing last time, more advise?) )

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  • Quick start - Peavey pv14 (you guys were amazing last time, more advise?) )

    Wow, you really answered a lot of my questions last time. Figured I'd ask for advise again.

    Basically, I have all day tomorrow to learn how to run this system if we are to use it Sat night. (2 Mackie swa1501 subs, 2 Mackie srm450v2s, and a Peavey pv14 mixer.) So I have a couple of questions ..

    First, I was concerned about the monitor system, having it all be dry, no effects on the vocals, no way to add effects to the vocals, only able to add effects across the board to the entire mix. I had an idea, does this make sense? I could daisy chain out of the back of one of the subs, use the passive "thru" signal (which is supposed to be the exact same signal that is going into it, after the main mix and effects) and send that directly into a powered mixer, to the passive monitors. Wouldn't that mean that my effects would be present on just the things that had effects in the main mix, and the mix in the monitors would be exactly the same as FOH? And I could also then use the one "monitor send" channel to go to my bass players' one powered monitor wedge, and that way he could have his own taylored mix?

    Next - of course, there is no "quickstart" guide for the pv14 and I have very little experience with these unpowered mixer boards. SO -

    Anybody want to offer me advise on how they'd systematically go about setting it up and running it?

    My thoughts were -

    We'll be using 7 or 8 channels:
    3 vocal mic
    1 direct from acoustic electric guitar
    1 mic from electric guitar amp
    1 direct line out from bass rig
    1 kick drum
    (1 overhead drums, if needed)

    1) connect everything, with the master L and R fader, all channel gains, and monitor knobs (main and on individual channels) all the way down
    2) Set the volume on the Mackie swa1501s at 12:00 (as was recomended as optimal by the owners manual)
    3) Set the volume on the 450s all the way down, until after we do a drum mix and a bass mix, assesing the levels for the sub before turning up the tops at all ...
    4) For each individual channel, set channel fader at "0" or unity gain position as was recomended as optimal by the owners manual, with the main L and R master faders being set at zero, also recommended by the manual for "best results", and then slowly use the channel gains to find good levels, - assessing the drums and the bass with subs only first, and then moving to other instruments ... and of course, turning up the 450s as needed ....



    I know some of this might not make sense. I also don't understand a lot about getting optimal levels, using peak meters, LED levels with regards to setting effects levels, I don't even know if I know how to ask things the right way, but I think I am learning here, giving myself a real crash course in sound ...

    Thank you so much for any and all advise you may have!

    Signed,

    Newbie today, Soundman 48 hours from now

  • #2
    Ok, above, I said I thought it might be ok to take a passive signal from the "thru" jack on the rear of the sub and send it to a powered monitor and passive speakers, for a monitor system. Thought I'd take it from a sub, not from the thru jack on a main (450s) because there is a crossover in the sub, and the signal going into the mains has low frequencies eliminated first,

    BUT the (sub) manual states that the thru jacks on the subs are for daisy chaining subs together, and that the hi pass jacks are to be connected either to "full range, active speakers, or to an amplifier/passive speaker combination".

    So, since the hi pass jacks send a line up to the mains, and then the thru jacks on the mains send out exactly what is coming into them, with no added power, just a signal ... it would be safe .. right, to connect an xlr cord to the thru jack on the mains and into a channel on a powered mixer, to passive speakers as a monitor system?

    Also, any reason why you could not take that same signal from the thru jack on a sub?

    Really common sense tells me this is so but I really don't want to f up brand new equipment. You guys may laugh at me for my questions if you like but at least you know one thing, I'm the type that if I had to use someone else's gear and didn't know how to run it, would use EXTREME caution ... gotta respect me at least for that, huh?

    Similarly, If I wasn't using the pan knobs or splitting anything left and right, couldn't I run the L out from the mixer into one sub, daisy chain it to another sub, connect the mains from the hi pass jacks on the subs, and use the right channel out to send a signal to the monitor system, in effect getting the exact mix in the monitors as FOH?

    Don't know why I'd want to do that if the other way worked as well, just asking ...

    Man I'm tired. Sorry if I have been redundant. You guys ROCK!

    Ok, signing off again,

    The sleep deprived aspiring soundman

    Comment


    • #3
      Two things.

      I don't really understand what you are trying to achieve with sending a FOH mix to the monitors. Monitors are specifically to monitor what the people on stage need - i.e. vocalists need lots of vocals, drummers need lots of bass etc.

      Secondly. Especially if you are a beginner. You do not want effects in your monitors - it will make the monitors more feedback prone and will not let the people on stage know what they actually sound like.

      Comment


      • #4
        Two things.

        I don't really understand what you are trying to achieve with sending a FOH mix to the monitors. Monitors are specifically to monitor what the people on stage need - i.e. vocalists need lots of vocals, drummers need lots of bass etc.

        Secondly. Especially if you are a beginner. You do not want effects in your monitors - it will make the monitors more feedback prone and will not let the people on stage know what they actually sound like.


        To answer your first paragraph, what I really want is a good mix, with all the instruments represented and in good balance, with all the vocals clearly understandable and slightly sweetened with some effects. And not a dry signal that in order to add some effect, I'd have to put it over everything.

        I figured a FOH mix would approximate what is heard out front, so it would include everything, right? For some reason, for the past two years my bandmates haven't been all that picky about asking for more of themselves in the monitor, so I just figured we'd all be happy if it sounded pretty much like the whole band sounded out front, right?

        People ask for just themselves to be cranked up? Funny, my guys don't do that. Yes, I want to hear my vocals and guitar in the monitor, but I don't want to hear them louder than they would be in the mix out front. I'd just like to clearly hear them in context, with the whole band sounding in balance. (Maybe I can understand the druimmer wanting more bass but they get that onstage from the bass rig too, right?)

        And to answer the second, I do understand the feedback issue, and need to consider that. Thanks for bringing it up. But I most certainly do want to have some effects on our vocals in the monitors. Not enough to make it muddy onstage, just enough so the vocals sound as good as they do out front. I know what it feels like to perform with a dry signal coming at you. It stinks to have to disregard something crappy sounding and to just act "on faith" that FOH is actually good. Much better for the performance if you can actually hear something good! And I'm not trying to be flippant but although I'm a beginner p.a. student, I'm hardly a beginner performer. I have played almost 4000 gigs, it's just that only about 70 of them have been with a band (and I wasn't running the system)! So all I have known are powered monitor/passive speaker combos. And with all those solo gigs, I didn't even use monitors. I could hear the mains just fine.

        BTW I am reading the Yorkville stuff and other reference materials posted here, thanks for that. I'll try not to post much more here, I know it has been overkill. Thanks again in advance if anyone has any additional comments for me...

        Comment


        • #5
          It sounds like your band is living with what they have and don't know that they can ask for more.

          As to vocals with effects sounding good in the monitor. If your singers are good then they will sound good without effects, and they will be able to pitch themselves better. If they sound bad they will sound bad regardless of effects, and they'll be able to pitch themselves better.

          Why would you want everything from the FOH in your monitors? Say you have a guitarist stage right, they have their guitar amp right next to them and they can hear it fine - but the guy stage left needs to hear it through his monitor. The guitarist stage left vice versa. Your drums are right next to you and plenty loud enough for anything - so you don't need them in the monitors - probably the same for the bass.

          The lead vocalist needs to hear themselves really well, and a hit of the backings, the backing vocalists neet to hear themselves really well as well as a bit of the lead - but not enough to overpower hearing themselves.

          This is all pretty standard stuff.

          Comment


          • #6
            Unless you're only running vocals through your PA, which is a bad idea, you don't want an FOH mix in your monitor. You'll be much closer to the drums and instruments on stage than the audience will, and it's not likely you'll want any of that stuff in your monitors. More than likely you'll only want vocals. The drummer may want a bit of kick and guitars too, which is why it's good to have separate mixes available.

            Don't worry about effects in monitors. Although it may be a bit painful at first, it's better if singers can hear what's really coming out of their mouth uneffected.

            Comment


            • #7

              1) connect everything, with the master L and R fader, all channel gains, and monitor knobs (main and on individual channels) all the way down
              2) Set the volume on the Mackie swa1501s at 12:00 (as was recomended as optimal by the owners manual)
              3) Set the volume on the 450s all the way down, until after we do a drum mix and a bass mix, assesing the levels for the sub before turning up the tops at all ...
              4) For each individual channel, set channel fader at "0" or unity gain position as was recomended as optimal by the owners manual, with the main L and R master faders being set at zero, also recommended by the manual for "best results", and then slowly use the channel gains to find good levels, - assessing the drums and the bass with subs only first, and then moving to other instruments ... and of course, turning up the 450s as needed ....


              1) Okay
              2) Okay
              3) No. Set the volume at unity on the 450s too. Most of the sound from the kick and bass will be coming out of the mains. You won't get a representative idea of what those instruments sound like only listening to the subs. I'd adjust the levels on the subs if you need to. Ideally, you'd have an active crossover in there and use it to adjust the levels. Don't forget to turn on the low cut filters on the Mackies.

              4) No. The gain knob is to optimize the input signal so that it's at the best level for the mixer's input. It's not for adjusting volume. That's the fader's job. It doesn't look like that mixer has a PFL button, so with the loudest signal you're going to get into each channel, adjust the gain till the clip light comes on, then back it down enough so the clip light doesn't come on any more. Don't touch the gain again. Adjust the relative levels using the faders.

              I'd leave the Mackies at unity and adjust all the levels on the mixer. Whichever channel fader on the mixer is the highest should be pretty close to unity, with the others being there or lower. Use the master faders to set the overall level going out to the speakers.

              Good luck. Don't wait till the day of the show to try to figure all this out.

              Comment


              • #8
                I'd keep the effects out of the monitors. You'll run a greater chance of feedback with effects. Good musicians will still sound good without the effects. Your PV14 can route the vocal only through the effects section of the mixer. The wet signal will come out the mains and the monitors will be dry. This should be sufficient for most applications.
                <div class="signaturecontainer">Engineering Axiom 21: Whomever has the key should be qualified.</div>

                Comment


                • #9
                  Do you have any graphic EQs? depending on the room you could have trouble with feedback. My advise get there early, and keep it simple the first couple of times until you get use to the system. Good luck.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thanks again, all.

                    re:
                    It sounds like your band is living with what they have and don't know that they can ask for more.

                    As to vocals with effects sounding good in the monitor. If your singers are good then they will sound good without effects, and they will be able to pitch themselves better. If they sound bad they will sound bad regardless of effects, and they'll be able to pitch themselves better.

                    Why would you want everything from the FOH in your monitors? Say you have a guitarist stage right, they have their guitar amp right next to them and they can hear it fine - but the guy stage left needs to hear it through his monitor. The guitarist stage left vice versa. Your drums are right next to you and plenty loud enough for anything - so you don't need them in the monitors - probably the same for the bass.

                    The lead vocalist needs to hear themselves really well, and a hit of the backings, the backing vocalists neet to hear themselves really well as well as a bit of the lead - but not enough to overpower hearing themselves.

                    This is all pretty standard stuff.



                    Well, maybe we HAVE been dealing with what we had. In that case we can continue to do so if necessary. We always asked everyone when they were happy with their monitor levels. In the end, it came out pretty balanced in the monitors for everyone. But we only had one monitor mix and did throw just a touch of effect on the whole thing, so it wasn't just stark and dry. I'm talking the monitor mix, I don't mean with threw effects onto all the instruments out front.

                    Regarding the "If your singers are good then they will sound good without effects, and they will be able to pitch themselves better. If they sound bad they will sound bad regardless of effects, and they'll be able to pitch themselves better."

                    Well, yeah, we have all heard crappy vocalists who mistakenly think it makes them sound better to throw a bunch of effects on themselves. I'm not talking about that. There IS a certain amount of effect you can have on your vocal and still be able to pitch yourself just fine.

                    And re:
                    "Don't worry about effects in monitors. Although it may be a bit painful at first, it's better if singers can hear what's really coming out of their mouth uneffected."

                    Yeah, it's painful. Hearing myself dry onstage. I'm a bit spoiled, I guess from doing the solo act. When I do that I can hear myself clear as a bell, and yes, with a little effects, and no, not enough so that I am not true to pitch ... I can perform, hearing myself dry, of course. It just takes the fun factor way down.

                    My question, I guess, was - even if people don't do it too often, would it be SAFE for my equipment to experiment with that? Sending the FOH signal into the monitors? From the thru jacks?

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      My question, I guess, was - even if people don't do it too often, would it be SAFE for my equipment to experiment with that? Sending the FOH signal into the monitors? From the thru jacks?


                      Again, that's just a really bad idea. You absolutely don't want FOH sound in your monitors. You just don't. That'll end up being a far worse mess than just dry vocals.

                      Honestly, you have way more to worry about as far as just getting a grip on the basics, that reverb in the monitors should be pretty far down the list of things on your mind right now. Worry more about how to get everything dialed in and your levels set first.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Again, that's just a really bad idea. You absolutely don't want FOH sound in your monitors. You just don't. That'll end up being a far worse mess than just dry vocals.

                        Honestly, you have way more to worry about as far as just getting a grip on the basics, that reverb in the monitors should be pretty far down the list of things on your mind right now. Worry more about how to get everything dialed in and your levels set first.



                        Well, granted there must be a reason that most other people don't try to do it! (just have the FOH mix coming back at them.)

                        And you are right, for right now (meaning tomorrow night) we just have to know how to run this thing and get a fairly decent sound so this gig goes ok.

                        I still think there must be a way. I mean, singing in a band doesn't mean you HAVE to hear crappy dry vocals in the monitors forever, right? If so, why am I doing it? (Like I said, I'm spoiled by being able to hear myself solo, sounding pretty good, with minimal effects - NOT dry which to me equals UGLY.)

                        I CAN take this mixer board back within 30 days for cash, if I want. For that matter, I have the same deal on the 450s. That is, unless I scratch or otherwise abuse them, then they are "officially" mine ...

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          I CAN take this mixer board back within 30 days for cash, if I want. For that matter, I have the same deal on the 450s. That is, unless I scratch or otherwise abuse them, then they are "officially" mine ...


                          That would be my recommendation. Not that there's anything wrong with that board, but it doesn't seem to have the features you want.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I don't fully see the problem.

                            If you want to use the internal effects for the monitors, connect the EFX SEND into a free channel.

                            Adjust how much effected signal you want to send to the monitor mix by adjusting the monitor send on that channel. Adjust how much you want on the main mix with the fader on that channel.

                            Make sure to keep the EFX aux on that channel at -? or it will create a feedback loop..
                            <div class="signaturecontainer">-</div>

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I don't fully see the problem.

                              If you want to use the internal effects for the monitors, connect the EFX SEND into a free channel.

                              Adjust how much effected signal you want to send to the monitor mix by adjusting the monitor send on that channel. Adjust how much you want on the main mix with the fader on that channel.

                              Make sure to keep the effects aux on that channel zeroed or it will create a feedback loop..
                              I was thinking the same thing.:thu: I was actually going to try that to see how well it works but my PRXs are packed in the trailer. Rockerdiva, if you have your gear set-up give it a try. As soul-x said be sure that the effects level on the channel you use is all the way off.

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