Jump to content

Stadium sound


Recommended Posts

  • Members

Hi folks,

Just got a call from our manager to say we're doing a gig for a team homecoming after a very big game on monday 2 weeks. It's an Irish rebel band that I do sound for. Some of you might remember some live tracks I recorded and posted on here.

It's on in the local stadium here (cap. 40,000) and we're expecting between 10,000 and 30,000 fans to show up (depending on the previous day's result!). I'm happy enough with the stage logistics (we did a 1,000 head indoor show a couple of months back thru a 20k rig, good FOH, no stage feedback) and we'll rent a couple of hand held radio mics for the MC and the team arrival, speeches etc.

I know there are plenty of experienced heads on here and I'm wondering on recommendations for PA? Size and layout? The rental company we used for that 1000 header are really easy to work with and I basically plugged in our gear and did my usual sound for that one, size wasn't a problem. I guess I have 2 questions, tho I'll add more probably as I think of them!

 

1. How big a PA will we likely need for this size of a venue? Bearing in mind that about half of the crowd will be on the pitch and we won't need to throw sound to the stand at the opposite end from the stage, it will be empty. Also, the pitch is about 1+1/3 to 1+1/2 the size of your standard American Football pitch

 

2. Is it advisable/necessary/important to run a distance compensated delay through, say a 5k rig about halfway back?

 

Many thanks in advance for any advice you can give me,

ad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 60
  • Created
  • Last Reply
  • Members

The answer depends of the quality and output you expect from the system. If you expect the quality of the Rolling Stones system ... then you'll need the Rolling Stones system.

 

As far as delay towers ... generally needed every 30 - 45 meters. It depends on the pattern control of your speakers. And yes they need to have delay added!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

The answer depends of the quality and output you expect from the system. If you expect the quality of the Rolling Stones system ... then you'll need the Rolling Stones system.


As far as delay towers ... generally needed every 30 - 45 meters. It depends on the pattern control of your speakers. And yes they need to have delay added!

 

 

Well I expect to get at least the quality of the Deltamax system we use for regular shows. Also, I thought it was clear from my post that I understand what a delay tower is and how it works.

 

I guess I better boil it down a bit to get some replies:-

 

1. How much FOH wattage will we need to cover the crowd?

 

2. Depending on the system being used, are delay towers 100% necessary? i.e if we end up daisy chaining 3 identical 10k rigs with, say, 8 regular Deltamax style tops and 4 bins for the main FOH, would it be more or less necessary to use delay towers with this system than with a 30k line array FOH. (30k is just a number out of my head)

 

If we need to run a delay tower, I'll probably feed a matrix output from the desk (Soundcraft GB2) thru a delay to our own PA positioned directly behind the mix booth, 40-50 yards from the stage

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I did this kind of gig as a bass player several times. Always seen the guys bring something between 50 and 70.000W for FOH. A total of 40 2x18 or 2x15 subs (24 in the ground and 16 lifted) plus the same amount of some good full range speakers should suffice...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I'm guessing you don't understand delay towers. It doesn't matter how big a system you have ... what matters is the pattern control. Even then high frequencies fall naturally with distance through air. Are they 100% necessary ... of course not. Will it help at distances of over 100 fett ... definitely. How good do you want?

 

As far as how much power? That question is incomplete without listing the speakers and their configuration. The last system I did for outdoor 10k-15k people had almost 300,000 watts available.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

I'm guessing you don't understand delay towers. It doesn't matter how big a system you have ... what matters is the
pattern
control. Even then high frequencies fall naturally with distance through air. Are they 100% necessary ... of course not. Will it help at distances of over 100 fett ... definitely. How good do you want?


As far as how much power? That question is incomplete without listing the speakers and their configuration. The last system I did for outdoor 10k-15k people had almost 300,000 watts available.

 

 

Ok, I'll rephrase it again.

 

A stereo line array will have a different pattern to a horizontal or pyramid array of standard tops. With which of these configurations is it more necessary to employ a delay tower?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Ok, I'll rephrase it again.


A stereo line array will have a different
pattern
to a horizontal or pyramid array of standard tops. With which of these configurations is it more necessary to employ a delay tower?

 

 

What are you talking about here? Conventional arrays w/ delay towers vs line arrays?

 

I don't know what you're asking, could you reiterate?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Short answer is no, delay towers aren't "absolutely necessary".

 

So, necessary to use delay towers with conventional arrays vs with line arrays?

 

Both and neither. I use delay towers to re-iterate the high end at great distances. Line arrays by nature throw sound incredible distances, and a properly configured and tuned conventional array will do so just as well... in both cases, the mid and high frequencies get blurred because they're travelling great distances through the air. The low end is fine but the high end just needs some clarity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

. With which of these configurations is it more necessary to employ a delay tower?

 

 

It doesn't matter how you get your pattern ... it just matters what the pattern is. It is advisable to employ delay stacks when your audience gats farther away than your speaker will cover. That distance is directly related to pattern control.

 

This is all academic anyway because you will need to provide coverage based of the shape of your audience.

 

I'm not sure what you think you are asking. So in the big general terms in which you have asked ... it's better to do it better than to do it not as well.

 

More power is always better than less, proper pattern is better than improper pattern, properly adjusted delays are generally desired any time you try to throw 100 feet and almost automatic if you need to throw 150 feet with almost any speakers commonly available. There are some extreme long throw specialty speakers available but I doubt you'd ever have access to them. Eveb then they all get worse with distance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

It doesn't matter how you get your pattern ... it just matters what the pattern is. It is advisable to employ delay stacks when your audience gats farther away than your speaker will cover. That distance is directly related to pattern control.


This is all academic anyway because you will need to provide coverage based of the shape of your audience.


I'm not sure what you think you are asking. So in the big general terms in which you have asked ... it's better to do it better than to do it not as well.


More power is always better than less, proper pattern is better than improper pattern, properly adjusted delays are generally desired any time you try to throw 100 feet and almost automatic if you need to throw 150 feet with almost any speakers commonly available. There are some extreme long throw specialty speakers available but I doubt you'd ever have access to them. Eveb then they all get worse with distance.

 

 

Thanks, it should be a pretty standard horizontal or line array, as above I'm waiting for the hire company to get back to us. So you're saying, whatever the system, once your trying to achieve coverage at over 100-150 feet from the main array, a delay tower is a good idea?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Short answer is no, delay towers aren't "absolutely necessary".


So, necessary to use delay towers with conventional arrays vs with line arrays?


Both and neither. I use delay towers to re-iterate the high end at great distances. Line arrays by nature throw sound incredible distances, and a properly configured and tuned conventional array will do so just as well... in both cases, the mid and high frequencies get blurred because they're travelling great distances through the air. The low end is fine but the high end just needs some clarity.

 

 

Thanks for that. I'm still waiting for the hire company to get back to us with what they'll have as FOH for us.

It should be easy enough to take a matrix feed from the desk and route it thru a delay unit (tuned for distance) to 2 or 4 of our Deltamax tops and set the tops up right behind the mix booth. Is this a good idea or is there maybe something else I'm missing out here?

 

Also, another poster mentioned 300,000 watts of power for FOH. What do you reckon yourself? That sounds like overkill to me..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Yes. You might get away with a bit beyond this ... but not 300 feet and we don't know how far you intend to throw. You mentioned 1 1/2 times an American football field. That's 450 feet. For that distance you need two ranks of delay towers if you expect any clarity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 



Also, another poster mentioned 300,000 watts of power for FOH. What do you reckon yourself? That sounds like overkill to me..

 

 

That was the system I did for Ozzfest. All outdoors. At some venues we needed to throw over two hundred feet and had audiences of up to 15 thousand metal fans. it was appropriate for those events. We started out with a system that was about 200,000W but it just didn't have enough punch so we added another 100,000W after the first couple of shows.

 

http://www.peavey.com/news/article.cfm/action/view/id/256/20070905.cfm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Yes. You might get away with a bit beyond this ... but not 300 feet and we don't know how far you intend to throw. You mentioned 1 1/2 times an American football field. That's 450 feet. For that distance you need two ranks of delay towers if you expect any clarity.

 

 

Cool, now I'm starting to get the picture. Gaelic games pitches are indeed about 450 feet long. I should be somewhere between 50-100 feet from the stage but the crowd shouldn't fill to much farther than another 50-100 feet behind me (and that's really only if the team win, the place might be nearly empty if they lose!). I'll have to check the specs of our own amps but I think I should be able to put at least a couple of thousand watts into our own tops and use them as the delay tower. Now I'm wondering about coverage for the stand. I might look into patching into the house PA (big ugly horns) just for the MC and speeches and then turn off that send when the band is going.

Again, I have to ask about wattage. Would, say 50,000 watts cover everyone between the stage and the delay tower?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

That was the system I did for Ozzfest. All outdoors. At some venues we needed to throw over two hundred feet and had audiences of up to 15 thousand metal fans. it was appropriate for those events. We started out with a system that was about 200,000W but it just didn't have enough punch so we added another 100,000W after the first couple of shows.


http://www.peavey.com/news/article.cfm/action/view/id/256/20070905.cfm

 

That sounds like a whole truckload of amps! :eek:

 

I don't think we'll need that much power, there will be kids in the crowd for a start and it's Irish rebel songs, best compared to Bluegrass with electric bass and rock-ish drumming

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

It depends on the sensitivity/efficiency of the speakers and your desired level.

 

 

 

Well, I've been talking Deltamax since the beginning of the thread, so, would 50k of Deltamax do the job of making the band heard over the hum of around 20,000 people without damaging children's ears?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Ok, thanks to all who replied.

I'm just gonna have to go with whatever the hire company provide and set up a delay tower behind the mix booth. It'll be a day of learning for me and there will be 5-6 hours between setup and showtime to rearrange the array and tower, so hopefully it'll end up a good show. I know I can put up a good mix anyway :thu:

Thanks again,

ad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Yeah, part of the fee of hiring the company should be their expertise in specing out a system like this. You keep on bringing up Deltamaxes. DML's are a medium throw box at best. They might serve as a 2nd delay zone to catch the last 100' of the field, if you stick them up on some tall scaffolding. They would better served as front fills for a system of this size. Your job as the BE should be to get the hire co. your input list and stage plot and then just enjoy mixing on system of that size.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.


×
×
  • Create New...