First time taking the rig out

[BillyJoJimBob]

I play in an original band, and usually any place we play has a PA, but there are a few places that don't provide them. Taking out my new rig in 3 weeks so I'm trying to prepare for this.

 

I'm a simple guy. I don't like hassles. I don't want to tweak things. I just want to set things up, set some levels, tweak a bit of EQ and then go for it.

 

For reference, our sound is very much a trashy rock n roll band. Very much a Stones sound with a strong country influence. But it's trashy. Volume is key.

 

I bought some 2 Yorkville EF500s for mains, and 3 NX55s for monitors. The clubs we play that don't have a PA are usually 200 max. This should fill about any room we play that would need us to bring a PA.

 

I actually use the Peavey PV14 Mixer and it sounds pretty good. My only outboard gear is a DBX 231.

 

One channel I run the mains. The other I run the monitors and tweak it that way in mono.

 

For practice this has sounded fantastic, but now it's time for the real world.

 

I have excellent mics. I use a Beta87 for my vocals, and Beta58 for the other vocal. We'll mic the kick with an EV868, probably throw an overhead up to get the kit sound and then slightly mic the guitar amps. Bass is plenty loud and doesn't need to be miced. We are a loud band with loud stage volume compared to most cover bands. It's who we are, and that's how we sound and play, and this is why I don't go overboard with the sound as I know it won't work any other way. We do a good job of policing ourselves on our overall volume and how to it translates to the audience though.

 

We don't run submixes. With my setup, don't think I really can due to the way I've been running this.

 

In the monitor side of things I'd obviously take the bass out of the monitors to not get the kick drum and muddy up the monitors.

 

I'm not a vocal effects guy. I use a slap delay on two songs for that Hank Williams effect, but that's it. No verb. It just doesn't sound good with my voice.

 

So I'm about as basic as I can be. I wanted something very simple, and that's how I built this system. However, I worry about feedback and the sound reaching the audience. The EF500s have the 2 inch tweeter, so it should cover well.

 

The stage is deep at this particular show, so feedback should be minimal, but you just don't know until you get there. The other place we'd play the feedback could be an issue. Smaller room, less deep stage, windows is the backdrop the monitors would feed into.

 

I've seen plenty of people love the Drive Racks. I've seen some who hate it. Is that something worth looking into?

 

Any suggestions? I just want a simple set up. Before I was using a powered Mackie board and some Yamaha speakers and monitors and that did OK, but it wasn't great sound. I thought I'd step up a bit and try to improve the overall sound of the vocals, etc. as it sounded muddy with that set up.

 

Thanks

[BillyJoJimBob]

By the way,

 

The way we run our live sound is to just enhance our stage sound. For instance, the 15's add a bit of bottom and project the amps a bit. The PA isn't meant to produce the sound of the guitars. It's meant to enhance the sound.

 

Kick is meant to project and get to the audience. The overhead is meant to enhance the sound of the drums and project them a bit to the back of the room.

 

The PA's main job is to push my vocal sound out there, and the harmonies out there, while enhancing our stage sound and pushing it to the back of the room.

 

Hope that explains what I'm trying to accomplish here. Thanks

[Al Poulin]

For your NX55P monitors, make sure to engage the 100hz cutoff on the back. You will no longer need to worry about too much kick or low frequencies coming out of them. The E500Ps are a very loud cabinet. The 2'' horn will throw far but their dispersion is not very wide. Try not to put too much kick into them as it will eat up your power/headroom very quickly. Have you thought of adding a single sub to cover the kick/bass? A single LS801P would do the trick for most bars 100-200 people. You could then activate the 100hz cutoff on the 500s as well and they would be able to get even louder and clearer... Just something to consider for a future purchase maybe. As for the driverack, I have not used one myself but it is recommended quite often. I'm sure others will chime in shortly.

 

 

http://www.yorkville.com/products.asp?type=29&cat=2&id=382

 

Best of luck,

Al - Party-Time! DJ Services

[BillyJoJimBob]

Thanks for the input.

 

Say I buy the LS801, how would I go about hooking up the monitors, mains and sub through the DBX231 and the mixer I have?

[abzurd]

As mentioned the mains you have are not a wide pattern so they'll throw, but may not cover, depending on the dimensions of the room, you could lose some high end on the sides. Still, they are quality cabinets that will get pretty darn loud.

 

Loud stage volume and Beta 87 vocal mic tells me you likely don't need an overhead for the drums. The overhead will just amplify the back line and the 87 bleeds quite a bit, especially compared to the 58A. It sounds like you'll have at least 3 vocal mics. Unless the stage is huge you just don't really need an overhead for that. It would be better to throw a mic on the hi hat, kick, in between toms, and snare and use as needed. For instance, you may find the bleed from the hat mic means you don't really need the snare.

[twostone]

One monitor mix and no bass in the monitors poor drummer might wanna point that bass cab towards the drummer. Also if your doing a lot of vocal harmony stuff and just one monitor mix how you gonna compensate for the back up singer that sings louder and the other one that barley sings with just one monitor mix. Just saying I ran across this problem with our lead singer had a sissy voice and we had sang with gusto. We drowned the lead singer out.

But having 4 monitor mixes I could crank him up and us down and blend a perfect monitor mix for each back up singer.

Great sub choice might wanna ad a active cross-over to go with it their built in cross-over suck. To much bleed unless Al can chime in and tell us they fix that problem.

[Al Poulin]

Although not perfect, the 100hz cutoff on the tops and adjustable frequency on the sub work fine for most applications. Yorkville did design their tops and subs to work well together. Not quite as good or exact as a real crossover, but way better than none at all.

 

Al

[Shaster]

If you don't want to to tweak or hassle around then you might want to take a pass on the Driverack. But if you're willing to try, the Driverack PX could help out by giving you Graphic EQ, limiters, and parametric EQ. You could then move your DBX EQ to monitors and have two monitor mixes. The above would certainly help with feedback issues.

 

But sans the Driverack, I would suggest one (or two) small to medium sized powered subs (keeping it Yorkville; NX720 or LS801P) a simple crossover, another DBX 231 and then you could call it a day. What you've got now is basically a nice system. Adding just a few components would make it it really nice system.

 

BTW I wouldn't worry too much about the tight horn pattern on the EF500P's. Many people sitting on the sides want it a little quieter there. Unless you're doing an auction, major anouncements, concerts... I don't believe it's much of an issue. YMMV.

[twostone]

Although not perfect, the 100hz cutoff on the tops and adjustable frequency on the sub work fine for most applications. Yorkville did design their tops and subs to work well together. Not quite as good or exact as a real crossover, but way better than none at all. Al

 

Wasup Al ? I figured you would know best. Thanks for chiming in

[abzurd]

Don't go with the Yorkville 720 or 700 sub or really any sub under 100 lbs. Those tops are way to heavy to be using a small, light subwoofer. The stack would be so top heavy that a fairly innocent "bump" could send them toppling. I know this from experience. I put a top weighing 20 lbs less than those (EV 12" Qrx boxes) on my LS700P subs. Someone tripped on the dance floor and fell near the sub. Their back hit the grill and the pole swayed, breaking loose the pole cup from the wood. I saw this happen and grabbed the pole before it, along with the speaker, fell on the guy. Even Yorkville recommends nothing bigger than the E10/E10P on top of the LS700P sub. The pole cups are fairly shallow in both subs.

[monkeyland]

 

One monitor mix and no bass in the monitors poor drummer might wanna point that bass cab towards the drummer.

 

 

i've never played in a band in a bar that needed bass in the monitors. in fact the bass amp would always be next to the drummer anyway so it's pointless. whenever i'm the bass player i specify no bass in the monitors because it usually just sounds bad even through high quality wedges.

[abzurd]

 

i've never played in a band in a bar that needed bass in the monitors. in fact the bass amp would always be next to the drummer anyway so it's pointless. whenever i'm the bass player i specify no bass in the monitors because it usually just sounds bad even through high quality wedges.

 

 

 

Agreed - low frequencies are a not your friend on stage. If you have 2 subs and split them to either side of the stage, the drummer is generally in the "power alley" where both subs are summing. Often most of the stage is because bar stages just aren't that big. Add a bass amp and it can get pretty muddy up there in a hurry. You will likely want the "click" of the kick in wedges though.

[monkeyland]

 

Agreed - low frequencies are a not your friend on stage. If you have 2 subs and split them to either side of the stage, the drummer is generally in the "power alley" where both subs are summing. Often most of the stage is because bar stages just aren't that big. Add a bass amp and it can get pretty muddy up there in a hurry. You will likely want the "click" of the kick in wedges though.

 

 

as a musician i feel that monitors should only be used to bring up levels of instruments that can't physically get loud enough. and along with that within a well working band the drums set the stage volume, nothing else. if a band can't balance themselves onstage through their own personal amps then there is something wrong. from there monitors can take over to get the vocals audible and other things like maybe a sax or other acoustic instruments. even a kick drum on a small stage should be fine. if you can't hear it then either your guitar amp is too loud or the drummer is playing like a {censored}, but most likely something needs to go down.

 

of course that goes out the window on big stages where distance comes into play. even still the last thing that i want to hear coming through a monitor wedge is an electric guitar. it's just not natural to me. and i'm sure that my preferences would be different for someone that plays a different type of music than i do but in my world i only need to hear the other guitar player enough that i know everything is ok on her side of the stage. i'll be playing a show this afternoon in a hockey arena with a pretty big stage and i'm sure there will be a little bit of guitar crossed in the monitors to keep track of things. way different from the typical small clubs we are used to playing.

[BillyJoJimBob]

OK, I probably went overboard tonight. I bought a 16 channel Mixwiz, 2 drive racks (1 for mains and 1 for monitors) and a rack.

 

I'm still on the fence with the sub. I'm sure I'll probably buy that as well.

 

I just want to buy a great setup that will make the band sound great. I think I'm there now minus the one sub.

 

Now I just need to figure out how to set it all up. Thanks so much for those that posted in the thread.

 

One thing I've learned about this after many years. Buying something for $500 to put a bandaide on the problem when $700 will fix the problem for good is just stupid. That's pretty much where I am right now.

[gonzobassman]

Good for you! I'm pretty much from the buy once,cry once school of thought.I've been piecing together my system for about 6 or 7 months now,and I'm getting close to done.By taking my time,i have managed to stay out of debt on it,been able to take advantage of some deals that have come my way,and educate myself more.and more.My last purchase will be my mid/tops,and I'm still not sure what I'll end up with.I'm thinking JBL MRX 515s,but we'll see what is happening when I finally have the cash.I can't say anything bad about the driverack stuff coz I don't know a lot about them,but in my opinion you picked a real winner with your MixWiz!!!

[twostone]

i've never played in a band in a bar that needed bass in the monitors. in fact the bass amp would always be next to the drummer anyway so it's pointless. whenever i'm the bass player i specify no bass in the monitors because it usually just sounds bad even through high quality wedges.

 

Do you play drums? Just because you don't like bass in your wedges doesn't mean a 30 year vet of drums shouldn't have bass in his wedge. Stick with your bass playing okay don't be giving advice about being pointless about what drummer's not needing bass in their wedge just because you don't like bass in your drummer's wedge. Maybe not all bass player use a bass amp. I know few bassist that show up with a bass POD? Um lets see I don't allow bass in my monitors.

[twostone]

OK, I probably went overboard tonight. I bought a 16 channel Mixwiz, 2 drive racks (1 for mains and 1 for monitors) and a rack. I'm still on the fence with the sub. I'm sure I'll probably buy that as well. I just want to buy a great setup that will make the band sound great. I think I'm there now minus the one sub. Now I just need to figure out how to set it all up. Thanks so much for those that posted in the thread. One thing I've learned about this after many years. Buying something for $500 to put a bandaide on the problem when $700 will fix the problem for good is just stupid. That's pretty much where I am right now.

 

Good choice on the mixer it's my next big ticket item. I gotta Peavey with 4 aux sends but the 2 extra aux sends would be even nicer.

[monkeyland]

Do you play drums? Just because you don't like bass in your wedges doesn't mean a 30 year vet of drums shouldn't have bass in his wedge. Stick with your bass playing okay don't be giving advice about being pointless about what drummer's not needing bass in their wedge just because you don't like bass in your drummer's wedge. Maybe not all bass player use a bass amp. I know few bassist that show up with a bass POD? Um lets see I don't allow bass in my monitors.

 

geez relax. you missed the point...which is that on your average bar gig you are close enough together that you can just turn up the amp if someone needs to hear more, therefore leaving more room for other stuff in the wedges.

[6Imzadi]

geez relax. you missed the point...which is that on your average bar gig you are close enough together that you can just turn up the amp if someone needs to hear more, therefore leaving more room for other stuff in the wedges.

 

Let's just turn up the bass......

there, that's better.

 

Oh, now I can't hear the guitar...... turn up the guitar. There, that's better.

 

Well, now I can't hear the vocal....... Turn up the monitor for my vocal. and the accoustic guitar, and the electric.

 

Now I can't hear the triggered kick or the sample of the keys. Turn up the keys amp.

 

 

Meanwhile, the audience is leaving from the mash of noise coming off the stage. No cohesion, no clarity. Just mush.

 

Good job. We got our $400 for the night. Sheesh!

[monkeyland]

Let's just turn up the bass...... there, that's better. Oh, now I can't hear the guitar...... turn up the guitar. There, that's better. Well, now I can't hear the vocal....... Turn up the monitor for my vocal. and the accoustic guitar, and the electric. Now I can't hear the triggered kick or the sample of the keys. Turn up the keys amp. Meanwhile, the audience is leaving from the mash of noise coming off the stage. No cohesion, no clarity. Just mush. Good job. We got our $400 for the night. Sheesh!

 

or maybe you are too loud if you can't hear the bass.

 

different strokes for different folks. our way works for us. your's for you. no big deal. admittedly i was feeling pretty damn opinionated when i entered this thread. probably too much so.

 

i still don't like bass or electric guitars in wedges whether it's me playing it or not. sometimes it's necessary but i'd rather avoid it. in an ideal situation for me a bass, two guitars and drumset would not need a PA in an "average" 150 person bar type gig if it weren't for vocals.

[twostone]

or maybe you are too loud if you can't hear the bass. different strokes for different folks. our way works for us. your's for you. no big deal. admittedly i was feeling pretty damn opinionated when i entered this thread. probably too much so. i still don't like bass or electric guitars in wedges whether it's me playing it or not. sometimes it's necessary but i'd rather avoid it. in an ideal situation for me a bass, two guitars and drumset would not need a PA in an "average" 150 person bar type gig if it weren't for vocals.

 

I can understaand not putting bass on the front line wedges because we don't either just the drum wedge a Yorkville NX750P which can dish out some nice low end without sounding lke crap. Plus the hard hearing gotta have a little bass in the drum wedge to keep the stage volume down.

 

I tried the vocal only appraoch problem I ran across it increased our stage volume way to much because both guitarist we're trying to fill the room up with their amps and just turned out to be a cluster {censored} of sound and screaming match to trun down mean while the crowd left because we made their ears bleed during the cluster {censored}. I learned just to mic the backline and keep a iron fist for stage volume and let the PA do the work. All is good

[monkeyland]

I can understaand not putting bass on the front line wedges because we don't either just the drum wedge a Yorkville NX750P which can dish out some nice low end without sounding lke crap. Plus the hard hearing gotta have a little bass in the drum wedge to keep the stage volume down. I tried the vocal only appraoch problem I ran across it increased our stage volume way to much because both guitarist we're trying to fill the room up with their amps and just turned out to be a cluster {censored} of sound and screaming match to trun down mean while the crowd left because we made their ears bleed during the cluster {censored}. I learned just to mic the backline and keep a iron fist for stage volume and let the PA do the work. All is good

 

true. i play guitar in my band. original music only. we only play one set and typically play with 3 other bands per show. our backline consists of a 50watt marshall with a 212 cab, a fender concert 410 and an ampeg SVT. our mantra is to turn down until we are no longer comfortable and then it's probably right. i don't need to hear the other guitar player hardly at all during the set because i know what she is doing and what i need to do. big amps are purely for quality and fullness of sound and we are told by almost everyone that we sound very nice and mix well.

 

most original acts around here only put kick snare and vocals in the PA and occasionally the bass if the bass players amp won't do the job. i would mic the backline if it were needed but it's not for most of the venue and it's not like a cover band situation where you are worried about stepping on peoples toes. the audience is there specifically to see original music and expect it to be loud. if you sound like a mess though then they probably won't be into your band and skip your set next time.

[BillyJoJimBob]

Question?

 

Considering most rooms we'd play are 200 people tops, do you think on Yorkville LS800 18 inch (1500 watt) sub would fill a room like that? I've got to think that one sub would suffice in a closed room like this. Thoughts?

 

Thanks

[Al Poulin]

Question? Considering most rooms we'd play are 200 people tops, do you think on Yorkville LS800 18 inch (1500 watt) sub would fill a room like that? I've got to think that one sub would suffice in a closed room like this. Thoughts? Thanks

 

In most situations, a single LS801P will be just fine for up to 200 people indoors.

 

Al

[abzurd]

IMO, given your own description of the sound you're looking for, I disagree. While better than no sub, one will probably not be "enough" for 200 people.

 

That said, look to your own experience. What kind of provided PA's are you playing through now? Do they have no subs, one sub, two subs, big subs, small subs? If you've played through several house systems then you probably know what you're looking for or what you'd deem "passable" for your own rig. If you don't know the specifics of "that" system, then go find out more about it.