Direct out or mic my amp?

[Pickin4Jesus]

I play in a large church and must

go thru the PA. Will I get a better

tone thru the house by using the

direct out on my amp or using a mic?

I use a Bogner Duende if that

matters. My goal of course is to get

the real tube tone coming from the

amp.

[monkeyland]

you will always get a better sound by micing than by running direct.

[NUSound]

Direct-Out is usually easier to do, provided you have a direct box handy.

[witesol]

direct will be pretty ratty sounding unless it's frequency compensated to emulate what a speaker does. a mic is better, and useful to have anyways..A H&K Redbox works well if you really want to skip a mic..

[monkeyland]

 

Direct-Out is usually easier to do, provided you have a direct box handy.

 

 

how is direct easier? you need special equipment and it sounds like crap anyway most of the time. there is nothing hard about sticking a 57 or whatever other decent mic you have. in that case if it sounds bad then the amp sounds bad.

[Pickin4Jesus]

It sounds like mic is the way to

go. I have been running a Cyber Twin

direct thru line out for years. With the Bogner

I want to get the best replication of the

amp possible in the PA. Not concerned

with convience or cost.

Thank you very much for any advise.

[witesol]

if you're not concerned with cost then get a good mic and stand.

on my good list:

Heil pr30

beyerm160

Fathead ribbon

 

or..a Royer!!

[NUSound]

 

how is direct easier? you need special equipment and it sounds like crap anyway most of the time. there is nothing hard about sticking a 57 or whatever other decent mic you have. in that case if it sounds bad then the amp sounds bad.

 

 

IMO, running an amp into a DI and straight to the board is easier than having to add an open mic and mic stand. I never said that using a mic is "hard," simply that a direct-out is a little bit easier. Personally, I think that direct-outs sound like crap (most of the time).

[LeftCoast]

There are trade offs either way.

 

Your Bogner amp has both a compensated recording out and a power amp line out, so rather than a DI box, I would use the line out to get most of the tone of your amp into the FOH system. The only tone you lose is the characteristics of the speaker cabinet, which, to be honest is subtle enough that it would be lost in the house mix anyways.

 

The down side of mic'ing the amp is that each open mic reduces the system's overall gain before feedback and introduces bleed-through by picking up drums, piano, monitor mix, even a foot tapping musician or vocalist, etc., so that any tone advantage from mic'ing your amp is lost in a big muddy sound.

[LeftCoast]

 

if you're not concerned with cost then get a good mic and stand. on my good list: Heil pr30 beyer m160

 

 

An SM7a or SM57 would also work.

 

 

 

Fathead ribbon or..a Royer!!

 

 

Yeah right! A figure 8 omni's is not exactly the first choice for live sound reproduction unless you want to also hear the vocalists fart. I would also have some concerns with putting a $2000 delicate ribbon mic on a short stand on a stage where it is likely to get kicked over.

[agedhorse]

The characteristics of the speaker cabinet are HUGE.

 

Compensated outputs that contain cabinet emulation are not uncommon on many amps these days. All of ours have them as standard. Some have XLR balanced direct outs that are cabiner compensated. They work quite well for many (but not every) situation. They are easy to use also. Plug and play.

[LeftCoast]

 

The characteristics of the speaker cabinet are HUGE. Compensated outputs that contain cabinet emulation are not uncommon on many amps these days. All of ours have them as standard. Some have XLR balanced direct outs that are cabiner compensated. They work quite well for many (but not every) situation. They are easy to use also. Plug and play.

 

 

Cabinet characteristics can be a big part of tone in an isolated sound studio.

 

On a LIVE stage, even with moderate stage levels, your mic is going to pick up a lot of kick, some resonance and rumble from the stage floor and bleed through from the floor monitors. This is a worship band, so we probably have a grand piano at half stick, possibly even a B3 or clone wheel with at least a 100W amp or Leslie, at least one guitar amp and several vocalists. Given the environment, any tone qualities contributed by the cabinet and picked up in a mic are going to be lost in all the bleed through even before it gets to the house mix. Once mixed no one will hear it.

[agedhorse]

You aren't following me.

 

The output from a cabinet (mic'd) is very different than the output of the amp without cabinet emulation filters to correct the tone for what the cabinet does.

 

I also disagree with your premise that you won't be able to hear the difference between the mic'd cabinet and an non-cabinet compensated (or emulated) output. The difference is quite large. I also think that you will find the bleed when close micing a guitar cabinet with a directional mic will be very small relative to any bleed.

 

Gain before feedback is a complete non-issue due to the gain factor of that input relative to anything likely to actually cause or support feedback. The gain of an elect gtr mic will be probably 10dB lower than any of the vocal or piano mics so it will be too far to thr right of the decimal point to even enter into the equation.

 

I have done this successfully for 30 years, over 100 shows a year with mostly national acts. You might give it a try rather than arguing something that generally does not translate to the real world. You might be plesantly surprised.

 

I also design amps for a living too. I'm pretty well up on this particular topic.

[Pickin4Jesus]

 

if you're not concerned with cost then get a good mic and stand. on my good list: Heil pr30 beyerm160 Fathead ribbon or..a Royer!!

 

 

Well what I mean is I don't mind

buying a decent mic or direct box.

I should have expressed that better.

[GCDEF]

 

how is direct easier? you need special equipment and it sounds like crap anyway most of the time. there is nothing hard about sticking a 57 or whatever other decent mic you have. in that case if it sounds bad then the amp sounds bad.

 

 

A lot of amps have a speaker emulated direct out built into them. Plug the mic cord into the back of the amp. No special anything required.

 

I do agree though that a mic will almost always sound better and really isn't much more difficult.

[monkeyland]

 

A lot of amps have a speaker emulated direct out built into them. Plug the mic cord into the back of the amp. No special anything required. I do agree though that a mic will almost always sound better and really isn't much more difficult.

 

 

i guess i've just never used one of those fancy amps like that. i've always viewed amps with those sort of features as gimmicks and selling points but to hear that manufcturers like bogner are adding them is interesting. i'm sure that the technology can sound good when done right but i also think that a mic on a guitar amp is pretty much idiot proof and i would never try to run a guitar amp direct live especially with 20 minute or so changeover times between bands

 

i know that my marshall and fender amps don't have direct outs.

[GCDEF]

 

i guess i've just never used one of those fancy amps like that. i've always viewed amps with those sort of features as gimmicks and selling points but to hear that manufcturers like bogner are adding them is interesting. i'm sure that the technology can sound good when done right but i also think that a mic on a guitar amp is pretty much idiot proof and i would never try to run a guitar amp direct live especially with 20 minute or so changeover times between bands i know that my marshall and fender amps don't have direct outs.

 

 

I have a Marshall JVM. It has a speaker emulated direct out. They're getting more common. It's pretty simple. Plug a mic cable into the back of your amp. If anything, it's quicker and easier. I'm not sure why you'd be reluctant to try it.

[monkeyland]

 

I have a Marshall JVM. It has a speaker emulated direct out. They're getting more common. It's pretty simple. Plug a mic cable into the back of your amp. If anything, it's quicker and easier. I'm not sure why you'd be reluctant to try it.

 

 

the amps that i like just don't have them is all i guess. i've not really been fond of any of the newer offerings from marshall. mines a jcm800, nothing fancy on that amp. same with my fenders. single channel amps are usually pretty short on bells and whistles, and the ones that i've heard from other people just didnt cut it. then again those amps would not have cut it for me even with a mic on them so the problem is most likely routed elsewhere.

 

i don't know i guess i'm just super opinionated about my guitar gear, and it works for me. i really just don't understand the implication in this thread that there is something burdensome about micing a guitar amp. the signal to noise ratio makes all other stage mics a non issue and the actual mic technique is about as simple as it gets

[GCDEF]

 

the amps that i like just don't have them is all i guess. i've not really been fond of any of the newer offerings from marshall. mines a jcm800, nothing fancy on that amp. same with my fenders. single channel amps are usually pretty short on bells and whistles, and the ones that i've heard from other people just didnt cut it. then again those amps would not have cut it for me even with a mic on them so the problem is most likely routed elsewhere. i don't know i guess i'm just super opinionated about my guitar gear, and it works for me. i really just don't understand the implication in this thread that there is something burdensome about micing a guitar amp. the signal to noise ratio makes all other stage mics a non issue and the actual mic technique is about as simple as it gets

 

 

I agree. I mic my amp even though it has a direct out. It's almost as easy to do and definitely sounds better.

[bassred]

This is super easy. Grab a shure SM57. Point it at the speaker.

 

DOne...

 

 

there is a little more to it with placement and such, but it's a method that has worked very well for many, many years.

 

Isolation should not be a problem, even on a smaller stage, since the mic is going to be very near the speaker.

 

Running direct is usually a last resort in my opinion (unless you are running a POD or something....)

[agedhorse]

There are times where it's just faster and esasier to plug and go. Especially if you are an opening act and have no space alloted to your guitar rig anyway. The quality, with a decent FOH engineer, can be just as good under adverse conditions and certainly viable.

[witesol]

 

Yeah right! A figure 8 omni's is not exactly the first choice for live sound reproduction unless you want to also hear the vocalists fart. I would also have some concerns with putting a $2000 delicate ribbon mic on a short stand on a stage where it is likely to get kicked over.

 

 

to clarify,

I see dozens of them(ribbon mics) on stages. the mild figure 8 pattern isn't of consequence much because of the gain required, as stated by AgedH. they're not omnis anyhow. A beyer m160 exhibits about as much off axis as some dynamic mics. A Cascade Fathead ribbon starts at around $200, a beyer is around $400 and a 121 is only around a grand..

 

Actually I think I've seen more tipped over stands in the studio than on stages...especially when it comes to unobtrusive mic stands for guitar amps.

[flanc]

 

direct will be pretty ratty sounding unless it's frequency compensated to emulate what a speaker does. a mic is better, and useful to have anyways..A H&K Redbox works well if you really want to skip a mic..

 

 

My guitarist uses an H&K Redbox for his cybertwin in lieu of micing...works great! Just direct out of the cybertwin...not so great...very thin.

[witesol]

 

On a LIVE stage, even with moderate stage levels, your mic is going to pick up a lot of kick, some resonance and rumble from the stage floor and bleed through from the floor monitors.

 

 

not really, well at least if you mic things correctly. proper HPF and mic gain structure pretty much eliminates all that. I've made literally dozens of live multitrack recordings of some fairly loud acts. you'd be surprised at how little of anything besides the amp is on the track..

[witesol]

 

My guitarist uses an H&K Redbox for his cybertwin in lieu of micing...works great! Just direct out of the cybertwin...not so great...very thin.

 

 

I carry a Redbox around for such a purpose. they're also cool for if a player's amp fries..you can plug their pedals right into the redbox and get a good tone on the Pa