Design help with setting up a Free Performance Space in central NJ

[akom]

That has to be a confusing subject, so I'll explain.

 

I am charged with setting up fixed-install audio system for our new health/fitness facility. The 2000 sq ft room we call "Group Exercise" is supposed to double as a live performance space for any bands that may want to play there on weekends (for free).

 

There are 3 total areas that I need to put sound in (see diagram), and I've worked out what I think would work, but thought that since this stands to benefit musicians in the area, it may be wise to solicit input on whether I'm doing this right and what (else?) they'd like to have in such a facility.

 

That said, I'll admit that I have no PA background at all (aside for a decent understanding of basic electronic concepts, impedance, balanced/unbalanced, LRC circtuits, etc). I'm actually a programmer/SA, and hence will take care of the streaming sound sources of this setup.

 

 

The "Group Ex" room, again, is for live performances - there will be a stage in that room, and "Fitness" will serve as a spillover area should we have crowd issues, but normally it does not require the same level of sound quality, and neither does the lobby. All rooms have suspended tile ceilings and are mostly 12.5' or 9.5' high.

 

So, based on experiences with friends' PA equipment and access to free electrician services (we're doing a build-out anyway), I've decided to simplify everything, and go with Powered Speakers all around. I tried some cheaper in-ceiling speakers (not 70V stuff, that seems to be completely sub-par), and was unimpressed. I know that I can use impedance-matching volume controls with 16/8/4 ohm speakers, but I'm not convinced that getting that (and amps) will yield comparable sound to a well-designed cabinet with a built-in amp - moreover it seems to cost more and is more hassle.

 

My selections and questions at this time:

 

Speakers: Behringer 215A everywhere. Quantities as indicated. Mounted near ceiling level. I've heard them in a similar space and to me they sound amazing... but I have not been able to do a side-by-side comparison. They certainly help out with the budget.

 

Mixers: Model is for suggestion. I need 2 unbalanced, 1-2 mic and 1-2 balanced inputs just for our system, plus whatever a visiting band would need. (Should there be a separate mixer for them? Do performers usually bring their own?)

 

Mics: For our own use, we just need wireless headset mic's for exercise instructors, and from what I can tell a VHF system would suffice here. I assume those would not work for a band - but I'm guessing that a pair of wired Shure 58's is pretty standard?

 

Rack: Is it fairly typical and desired to place a rolling mini-rack in a closet near the stage, and expect that visiting musicians would pull it out, plug in, and then leave things in a sane state when they leave? Or do I need to lock it up and provide restricted access (separate mixer, etc)?

 

Please feel free to offer any input, suggest changes or additions. We will also see what a professional installation/design would run, but I suspect that is out of our price range . We can do most of the labor ourselves (I'm quite good with a drill, soldering iron and linux), but none of us have any pro-audio experience, and frankly concepts like "balancing the system" scare me a little (as I haven't researched it yet). I have some friends that can probably help, we will see.

[dedmeet]

My suggestions -

 

1. Hire a professional sound company to design and/or install this system. There are likely building codes and other factors that need to be up to snuff or you could wind up getting cited. Also,

 

2. If I need powered speakers on the cheap, there are better choices than the B***inger stuff (Wharfdale, Titan, Peavey PR12D is a fave of mine). Also, I don't see anything in the specs on the B215 about them being flyable. Do not run some threaded eyebolts or cables through the handles and assume such would be safe.

 

Your basic design is workable, but there are architectural and install systems designed to make all of this easier for you, and, most likely, cheaper!

 

One important factor that someone will ask is: What is Your Budget for This?

[NUSound]

Hire someone.

 

Don't discount a 70v system so readily. Properly installed, it will likely give you better coverage.

 

 

Rack: Is it fairly typical and desired to place a rolling mini-rack in a closet near the stage, and expect that visiting musicians would pull it out, plug in, and then leave things in a sane state when they leave? Or do I need to lock it up and provide restricted access (separate mixer, etc)?

 

 

I would never allow anyone but myself or someone trained by myself to touch an install rack.

 

 

Mixers: Model is for suggestion. I need 2 unbalanced, 1-2 mic and 1-2 balanced inputs just for our system, plus whatever a visiting band would need. (Should there be a separate mixer for them? Do performers usually bring their own?)

 

 

You need a basic rack mount mixer, like this one: http://www.audiopile.net/products/Electronics/ML620E/ML-620E_cutsheet.shtml

 

If you're having a band come in, I'd have a separate desk that can plug into the line mixer.

 

BTW, hire someone. DIY in a commercial building is usually a recipe for disaster (and consequently: lawsuits).

[tele-vangelist]

 

1. Hire a professional sound company to design and/or install this system. There are likely building codes and other factors that need to be up to snuff or you could wind up getting cited.

 

 

Greetings from NJ!

 

I would suggest these guys ...

 

http://www.stirlingaudioservices.com/

[akom]

Many thanks for all the input, even if it's not what I'd like to hear

 

I'm getting some estimates/designs from a couple of companies, and I will probably call the one suggested too. If the numbers are within reason I will certainly prefer letting the pro's do it, as much as I like to tinker. However, this info will help me be an educated customer, at the very least, so I'll continue asking questions, if that's OK.

 

As for Behringers and flying - they are not flyable from cables but OEM wall mount brackets are available for them, which should work fine with proper anchors through steel stud and 1/2 sheetrock. I'd definitely also safety them as well to something, and even mount the brackets on a large wall-mount plate secured with a lot of anchors.

 

As for Behringers and sound quality, as a newbie I'm having trouble figuring out how people research these things - I listened to some alternatives at B&H and didn't like the sound of most of them, but I'm sure it's just a poorly configured system. I've tried Sam Ash, and they had a poor active speaker selection and they seemed to prefer to demo nothing but passive EV's, which, incidentally, I didn't like at double the price of B215A's.

 

As for 70V systems - can someone suggest a higher-than-mediocre music-grade speaker, if it is possible (and how many speakers/watts it would take per unit space to achieve this)? With online research all I have to go on is the pure watts at the transformer taps and the driver diameter, which, it seems to me, is far from indicative of what it will sound like. Also, I've heard that there are limits on the power of a 70v system (though I assume nothing prevents me from operating multiple independent amps). Same thing with traditional ceiling speakers, though I'll try to find user experiences with these on the forums myself.

 

On the mixer question it sounds like I should have a "band mixer" that's exposed and feeds into the main mixer which is safely locked away.

 

Overall though, is there a consensus on the approach - active speakers vs ceiling speakers (either 70v or conventional with impedance correction) in terms of the best sound quality for your money? (And I did notice that plenum speaker wire tends to cost more than balanced runs ).

 

Thanks again for all the info.

[akom]

Forgot to answer the budget question.

 

Sadly, still figuring this out, as I'm not the one paying the bill. Initially $20K was considered as a theoretical maximum, now I presented a parts bill of $6500 (with potentially $0 labor costs) and it caused quite a commotion... (with a suggestion of "let's just put in the old 65W 70V system we have")

 

I felt it was quite cheap actually, as it included everything - 14 speakers, mounting, mixers, cables, racks, DI, wireless mic's, even usb sound cards. (balanced cables at Ebay prices, I'll admit)

[Dark Ice]

akom, welcome to the forum in my personal opinion, a typical system that would be fine for a fitness area would never be able to keep up with a band, and a system that would, would be overkill for a fitness facility. That being said, please correct me if I'm wrong but the space you're trying to fill seems to be pretty large (you're looking at a space for, what, 400 peeps?)

 

I dont know what kind of music will be going on in this performance space but most bands benefit from a set of subs. I'm also going to suggest that the mix in your second room could be anything from poor to abysmal depending on how well the band is miced, how good an engineer you have running the desk, and how well set up the second mix is. In the room with the performance they'll have to mix the PA to balance out with the sound coming from the band and its hard to create a mix for another room without actually being in the room.

Also, who wants to come to see a band but not actually see them and just listen in a different room? (I apologise if I misunderstand what you're trying to accomplish here, I'm sure you have a good idea of what your target audience expects)

 

Another thing to consider is that the placement for your speakers for general use may be useless for performance use (they cannot be behind the band for example as they'll bleed into the microphones)

 

It certainly looks like an interesting and ambitious project, I think you might be dissapointed in the outcome if you compromised (financially or otherwise) to add all the additional requirements it would take to run bands, let them take and set up their own PA gear (or hire)

 

Steve.

[Shaster]

You need two separate systems. Your old 70 volt (assuming it actually works) for the fitness component, and a PA for a band, that would cover the most appropriate room.

 

I have played in a large fitness centre. There was no way to cover the whole facility, so we picked a spot and "directed the party" to that location.

 

You can always tap in to the ceiling speakers from your band PA, but the results will be so so. It would however allow people to realize there's a band and to wander in when they heard a song they wanted to dance... to.

 

For PA you need an unpowered board (eg. PV14), two powered speakers (eg. QSC K12's), two powered monitors - here you can cheap out, maybe Behringer (although I wouldn't buy Behringer). You could also get a sub at some point.

 

Good luck.

[STRAT TOOL]

There's a new rage in fire inspectors lately. They want the PA in a venue connected to the buildings fire alarm sytem so that the sound dumps if the alarm goes off. I'm currently doing one of these in Somerset.

 

If you are installing a fixed system, you may be required to have the wiring included in the electrical permit. If you do it wrong, you'll end up not getting a CO and delaying your opening.

 

There's some damn good ceiling speakers on the market right now. Gyms run mono and this type of distribution is fine.

 

Most arobics rooms I've been in have 4 or 6 speakers hung high. Loud music and a girl with a headset mic plus a whole bunch of wooden floors and mirrored walls, EI, this isn't pro sound, it's something to friggen sweat to.

 

Like the other guys said, a band is a whole different scenerio. A 2000 sq ft. room is like a small bar. Two speakers on sticks and two subs, you could rock the place. Now if the other room is adjacent with like a sliding partition, you will change the entire dynamic by adding that space. If you tried to use the ceiling speakers over there, you'd probably have to delay the farthest ones.

 

Getting sidetracked here, but Id do a 70 volt system everywhere with good JBL or Altec ceiling speakers, a few zones and a wall rack and call it a day. Treat the stage as a seperate entity and get a guy good with live sound to eyeball it. You could also tell the bands they need to provide their own PA or find a local soundguy and do rentals.

[STRAT TOOL]

Tell you what, my office is in North Brunswick, I am an electrical contractor. I get fantastic pricing on systems and I could give you a very competitive quote on your project. I've done tons of 70v sytems, from cheap to high end Altec jobs. PM me if interested.

[abzurd]

You REALLY need to stop and think about this before continuing. You are going to attract inexperienced bands that are going to have the PA system trashed in a month. If there's no budget to install, lackluster budget for the gear, and no budget for the entertainment, this really isn't an endevor you should even be considering.

 

IMO, there is a cost of admitance, even for free entertainnment. I get that young bands, new bands, etc need a place to play and open mic nights are fine, but you have to be commited to staffing the venue with seasoned, knowledgable people. If you don't have a house sound person on staff you're just asking for trouble. You WILL have a mess on your hands. No question about it.

 

Honestly, I kind of got turned off at the bolding of "benefit musicians in the area". Considering all the free install labor and sourcing of the cheapest gear, it just looks like another bottom feeder project looking for free entertainment, with "great exposure" as the bait. Maybe I'm wrong, but when folks lead with bands will play "for free", the electricians services are "free", 14 Behringer speakers, and a meager budget of $6500 causing "quite a commotion", the phrase "run Forest, run" pops into my head.

 

I know this sounds harsh, but it just seems like an ill conceived plan from the get go, in just about every way imaginable.

[akom]

Thanks again for all the replies.

 

Like I said, I'll be the first to admit that I'm no PA expert, I'm just the CTO and this project fell in my lap. I felt that it would be interesting enough to learn about a completely different world of technology, so I would try to pull this off, and hence I'm here asking for input (in fact I got more constructive input than I expected). Actually I'm quite impressed that I got any response, and apparently didn't break any rules or upset anyone too severely by my ignorance (I'm used to that type of treatment on most "in-crowd" forums in my field)

 

To address the various post in no specific order:

 

1) There is a glass wall (airtight) between the 2000sq ft and the 5000sq ft room, hence me calling it a "spillover area" for excess attendees (this may never be needed, who knows). It is not a sliding partition, but there is a glass doorway.

 

2) The comment on placement of speakers with regard to the performers is interesting - in the primary performance space, the 'stage' would be in the center of the long wall (60') - (top of my diagram) - and the speakers would be at the ends of this wall, facing in... would that still cause an issue for mic's/etc? Would they act as stage monitors, sort-of? Do I need stage monitors? (OK I may be pushing the clueless tolerance limits with this question)

 

3) Since the common theme of responses is now "you need two systems", that raises some questions: I understand that a typical ceiling speaker system is not applicable for live performance, but why not the reverse? Why can't I put in one system that is (some variants have been suggested already)? Not having to have amps, ceiling speakers and run extra (plenum) wire seems to be quite beneficial to me, in terms of both labor and equipment costs.

 

4) I have to ask... why this universal hatred of Behringer stuff? Are these comments based on first-hand experiences with the model in question or is it an "I'll never buy an American car" equivalent for the PA world? I ask because I do have first-hand experience with the model in question, and that's the primary reason I spec'd around it.

 

5) As for the comments on the "free", and "benefit musicians" statements. Here is the deal/idea/reasoning, at least before all this feedback I got:

- We're putting in a system that is supposed to sound good to our customers (better than a typical gym, though we're not a gym per se)

- Why not have it double as a performance space for bands, since it's "good quality"?

- Bringing in these bands would bring in spectators, who will in turn discover our business and may wind up being customers or at least refer people. That is what the "free" in this context is about. It's not for getting "free entertainment", it's for getting free exposure. Cynicism aside, I see it as benefiting everyone involved, though of course you can view it any way you like .

- Electrician services are "free" because we can roll them into the build-out which is being paid for by the landlord, not because I'm going to hack it up with a pair of pliers. (though I certainly do in my own house).

 

6) I can appreciate the comments on needing qualified staff too look after the equipment. That is something that was not extensively considered, and that's a good point - we'll need to figure out how to best deal with that. When you say "going to have the PA system trashed in a month" - do you mean damage from improper sound levels, physical damage through abuse, or both? It has already been mentioned that I'd need a separate mixer to expose to the band, so I thought that would take care of some of these issues...

 

7) I've tried to ignore the need to have subs, but they are always an option to add later/now - we could always have them wheeled in for venues.

 

Again, many thanks for all the input.

[thinderik]

I live in central jersey. Play @ the court tavern from time to time. I can tell you right now... that most of the bands you'll get comming to that place will most likely

A) have no idea how to use the equipment you provide and ruin it.

 

B) They will be bringing a crowd that will more then likely NOT be interested in signing up for any gym membership.

 

Go to the court and you'll see they have a bunch of gear and it gets used and abused AND they have sound people that know what they are doing. But mic's get dented people bump into stuff and such.

 

What kind of music do you plan to host here also?

 

I would just advertise it to the community as "Hey we have this awesome open space for show's if your a band and would like to use this space to host shows".

 

My band has a pa and most bands that are serious and have a good sound or have good music will have their own stuff. If they do not have the gear then its probably safe to bet your patrons will not be entertained. Equipment to fill that size area they will have something to entertain the crowd that they can probably pull.

 

Another option. Invest the money in a really good stage/acoustic treatments. That way the bands that do show up to play will appreciate it for the awesome acoustics and ease of room tuning. If they need to there are plenty of sound people around central jersey that can be rented out.

 

Also Dont give up! If you can make it so bands can easily play there, do not get jacked around, and have a regular thing going you'll get tons of exposure for your business. Hell I have so many band friends that if it was cool enough we could get show's going there often with lots of bands and people.

 

GOOD LUCK!

 

derik

[Dark Ice]

In regards to my speaker placement comment, the answer is "it depends".

Most bands I see place the speakers in front of the band, and the crowd congregate around the band, so not only to they get to be close to the performers and dance or whatever, but they 'benefit' from the high volume in that area, and anyone who wants to just chill out and listen stays at the back of the room beside the bar where you can still hear yourself think (in theory!). This works best for small bands in bars who do their own sound because the PA carries mainly vocals, with the instruments carrying their own sound, so all the sounds coming from the same place.

 

What you propose "might" work, but the crowd dancing in front of the band are hearing the vocals 30' away, you need a lot more volume from the speakers to get it balanced in front of the band with the sound of the instruments spilling over, and while it may work so the band hears themselves, you may find its loud enough that the sound from the speakers re-enters the microphones creating feedback.

 

Since your overspill area is 'seperate' it might work to put a microphone pointing at the band that feeds your speakers in the overspill area. I'll level with you now though I've never done this and I'd much rather see a pro offer their opinion on this matter.

 

I still think a seperate system would be fine, couple speakers on stands that could be packed away would be very convenient imho(and it'll only frustrate you if the kind of bands you attract are pro enough to have their own PA gear and use that instead if your system is permanent and you've spent a lot of money on it)

 

On your question 3 - think about it like this - fidelity, loudness and low cost - pick any two. Your band system will need to be capable of being much louder than your playback system. Sometimes fidelity isn't everything in live sound (and sometimes it wouldn't matter given a lot of bands) so I wouldn't want to compromise my playback system for this promotional thing.

 

Your post has got me thinking though, two things came to mind. One, when I used to go to the gym we used to make a night of it and go to a bar afterwards. Secondly, most people like a drink when they see bands. I realise the extent of what I'm implying but, as I sit here after a couple Whiskys, I know I'd sign up for a gym if it was like signing up for a golf club (19th hole )

 

Steve.

[akom]

I think the last two comments finally helped me internalize what everyone else has said, and I'm very grateful.

 

So, here is my plan at the moment:

 

1) I'm going to forget the whole "satisfy both band and everyday music needs with one system" idea. What the others said makes sense - a pro band will have their own equipment, and we'll just be wasting money.

 

2) I'm going to put in whatever system I feel will satisfy our primary needs, and that's good sound from the everyday playback system. My thinking is that my original design (above) is perfectly adequate for that and can be done with optimal simplicity and cost. Possibly that setup can double as backup speakers for the bands' system, but I'm not going to spec around that or even consider that until there is more certainty about how we're using it.

 

3) I'd be happy to do what I can to provide a hospitable environment for bands - thinderik mentioned stage/acoustic treatments, can anyone point me in the right direction to self-educate on this subject? (I just read some design notes on perfect opera house acoustics, but I suspect that's not quite what he meant)

 

Just as a point of clarification, we're not a gym . I know I haven't explained it thoroughly - suffice to say that we're an integrative health company, and physical exercise of various types is part of the program, but is by far not all of it.

 

Dark Ice gets the sales technique though - if people lounge around (maybe not with alcohol, but we'll have a cafe in-house) they may take some interest in what we do, and that's the main goal here, because our model is kind of difficult to convey in one sentence, and just having 100 more people know that such a thing exists goes a long way. We actually do help people

 

I'll be able to explain it in more detail once we open.

 

Again, thanks for helping me hash this out.

 

PS: still no unbiased arguments against Behringer?

[abzurd]

PS: still no unbiased arguments against Behringer?

 

I don't mean to sound jaded, but no bias needed. Behringer is what it is, and that is entry level gear at the lowest possible price. The gear is disposible, meaning the cost to fix is more than it's worth. From what I've heard even Behringer simply throws away a unit under warranty and gives you a new one. For a commercial application using 14 speakers, Behringer is not where you want to go.

 

Again - please rethink this. The idea of a dedicated area with stage and real, professional gear, is a good one, but you're talking $6500 for 14 cheap speakers. There is SO MUCH MORE you need that you've not even thought of. I have a modest PA system for a 5 pc band that, with lights, all instruments and the PA, fits in a 5x8 trailer. The PA itself is around $12,000 and that's just 2 mains, 2 subs, 2 monitors, 2 in ear monitor systems, and a 16 ch digital mixer.

 

A 1/2 decent house system for ONE room, is going to cost you over 10K.

 

Powered mains $1,000 x 2 = $2000

Powered subs $1000 x 2 = $2000

Powered monitors $700 x 5 = $3500

16 channel mixer with basic effects - $900

Stereo 31 band EQ's - $200 x 3 = $300

stereo compressor/gate - $150 x 2 = $300

100 ft 16 channel snake with 8 returns = $350

 

Now you have cables, mics, mic stands, cases......

[lifeloverwg]

PS: still no unbiased arguments against Behringer?

 

The majority of people on this board are professional, semi-professional and serious sound people who want and need reliable equipment.

 

Behringer is a very low cost provider of equipment built to meet the lowest price point not the highest performance and reliability no matter what there advertisements claim. While they do have some products that have decent reputations, I think it's fair to say that most of their product line is considered disposable by most serious sound providers and consumers.

 

It's not often that the cheapest products end up offering you the best value unless cheap is all you're looking for.

 

Winston

[IsildursBane]

 

2) I'm going to put in whatever system I feel will satisfy our primary needs, and that's good sound from the everyday playback system.

 

 

That's probably a better idea. You can always rent a real PA if/when you need one. Just have a place for the sound company to get adequate power.

 

-Dan.

[thinderik]

I think now that akom is steering away from the idea of suiting the gear needs for bands playing there he will have more money in the budget for better speakers.

 

I can not speak for or against behrringer as i've never owned anything by them. I don't know where a good place for you to hear NON passive speakers that are not behringer's. I've never bought speakers brand new, but maybe someone in here that lives around jersey could give you a name of a place.

 

I only say this because alot of people are telling you how bad they are, but you heard them and like them, however you did not have many options in front of you at the time. I think that if you had a bunch of really good powered speakers in front of you and brought a couple other people maybe you would hear a difference. If after you do something like this you still like them, then I dont think anyone can say you made a bad choice.

 

Also if you hear something you like there go home and look it up online to get the best deal (im sure you'd do this already, i mean your here posting).

 

I really cant wait till you get this done. My band and 5 other bands rented out the Forum Theater in Metuchen for a show on the 20th of February. It would be great to bring a crap ton of people to a place like your trying to work out and not have to deal with the guy at the forum.

[thinderik]

I think now that akom is steering away from the idea of suiting the gear needs for bands playing there he will have more money in the budget for better speakers.

 

I can not speak for or against behrringer as i've never owned anything by them. I don't know where a good place for you to hear NON passive speakers that are not behringer's. I've never bought speakers brand new, but maybe someone in here that lives around jersey could give you a name of a place.

 

I only say this because alot of people are telling you how bad they are, but you heard them and like them, however you did not have many options in front of you at the time. I think that if you had a bunch of really good powered speakers in front of you and brought a couple other people maybe you would hear a difference. If after you do something like this you still like them, then I dont think anyone can say you made a bad choice.

 

Also if you hear something you like there go home and look it up online to get the best deal (im sure you'd do this already, i mean your here posting).

 

I really cant wait till you get this done. My band and 5 other bands rented out the Forum Theater in Metuchen for a show on the 20th of February. It would be great to bring a crap ton of people to a place like your trying to work out and not have to deal with the guy at the forum.

[abzurd]

In this situation the sound of the speaker is secondary to the reliability and durability of the product. It doesn't matter how the speaker sounds when it's working if it's not working. Using powered speakers should keep the reliability level up in general, but in this situation they still will take an absolute pounding and likely be in the limiters every time they're used. You just don't want "the cheapest thing". I'm not just picking on Behringer here. You don't want the low end line from JBL, Yamaha, Peavey, etc.

[Ed Storer]

Maybe I can help with the stage/acoustics issue.

 

If you have a glass wall opposite and parallel to a drywall partition (or 2 parallel drywall surfaces) you are going to experience horrible flutter echo. Think of your junior high gym with 10 basketballs in play. If none of the room's corners are 90 degrees and you have a reasonably good acoustical ceiling then you have minimized that problem. If the corners ARE 90 degrees, then at least 2 adjacent walls should have acoustically absoptive treatment.

 

The band should not face the glass wall.

 

The stage area needs to have plenty of outlets. Many of the members of this forum are very knowledgeable about electrical power and I'm a neophyte, but even a garage band should have 2 dedicated 20 amp circuits with the same phase current.

 

A raised stage is great, but your room isn't all that big, so a portable 8 by 8-foot drum riser would be a great addition.

 

Behringer: I have a Behringer power amp that has given flawless service for 4 years. I had one of their small mixers drop a channel. I won't go near any of thier stuff that has a computer chip inside. I've had those quit working at very inopportune times. I have one of their cable testers that I find indispensible and it has been totally reliable. Behringer delivers a lot of "spec" for the money, but the reliability is always suspect, and warranty or no warranty, when it quits working in the middle of a performance it's not worth it.

 

I can appreciate "build-out" budgets. I write specifications for an architectural firm and I am accustomed to see paneling turn to paint to stay with the budget.