Complete PA Recommendation Needed - but with a twist!

[dkbmusic]

Hey Everyone,

 

Great forum - there are some very knowledgeable people here, and I'm hoping I can get some assistance.

 

I'm looking at buying a complete PA system to use for my band playing funk/soul/R&B in bars and clubs in my town. It's probably going to be a 6-piece band, with sometimes adding a horn section. Most venues will be in the 100-200 person capacity range.

 

I run a full-line music store, so I have the benefit of being able to get many brands at cost and I'd like to promote the gear I can sell (thus the twist). We currently carry gear from Peavey, Mackie (don't get me started), Samson, and other misc. brands. PA isn't our strong suit, so that's why I'm asking you all rather than our sales staff. My budget is probably around $6,000-7,000 street price, although I would not be offended if I spent less...

 

So, here's my questions:

 

 

 

So far, I'm thinking something like this:

 

Mixer: PV16FX

Power Amps: Peavey IPR1600 (mains) & IPR 3000 (subs)

 

Subs: (2) Peavey SP118

 

Mains: Peavey SP2

 

Thoughts & opinions?

[dedmeet]

Honestly, your system is a good start and likely will handle gigs in your range provided you do not need 110dBA at FOH.

 

A couple of thoughts:

 

1. I guarantee you will need more channels. Go to the 24FX or bigger. The Allen and Heath boards are popular here and sound great, but you will need a small rack of gear to get the same processing capability as the FX has built-in.

 

2. The FX boards offer no processing for the AUX sends. You will need an outboard rack for the AUX send processing (I suggest 31-band EQs for each aux you plan to use, plus one more for the aux you thought you'd never use)

 

3. Monitors. IEMs are great for many folks, but powered cabs on stage are handy too. I am not a big IEM user myself. YMMV.

 

4. What do you plan to use for a crossover?

 

5. Powered speaker cabs are super handy as they have crossovers, processing, and protection built in. The QSC HPR series is very popular here, as are other offerings. The benefit is that you do not a rack of power amps, crossovers, and DSP to manage your speakers - they do a great job of that themselves. The QSC HPR122i is a great powered stage monitor.

 

6. You will need a snake. Go to audiopile.net and get a good one. Don't get a cheap one off of the 'Bay.

 

7. Get good mics, good stands, and good cables. Buy once, cry once.

 

Personally, I am hoping to go to an FX mixer and QSC powered cabs in the next year, as it eliminates a lot of space and weight.

[allexcosta]

 

Powered or non-powered? Since I don't own any gear, I can go either way. Powered seems like a pain - why do some people recommend it?

 

 

No guessing, no carrying amps, better protection, built-in processing/crossover and you think it's a pain?

 

Here's my suggested PA:

 

FOH

 

2 HPR181

2 HPR122

 

MONITORS

 

4 SXA250

 

MIXER

 

Presonus Studiolive (all processing is built-in)

 

________________________________________________________________

 

I listed equipment that I either own or have worked with (except the mixer) and can vote for the sound and construction. Also, it doesn't get any easier to setup or tear-down.

 

Good luck!

[agedhorse]

What brands do you have access to? This is an important detail.

[Jerry007]

 

Powered seems like a pain - why do some people recommend it?

 

 

I just built a system from scratch with the same budget and chose powered speaker specifically because they seem like LESS of a pain...

 

- No heavy amp racks

- Built-in crossover

- Easier to set gain structure

 

Cons:

- Less scalable?

- Component failure may render the entire unit unusable

- AC power to each box (but creative solutions exist)

 

I don't really think you can go wrong either way, but I'm digging my PRX rig - Sounds good, and really straight-forward to deal with.

[Ed Storer]

Monitors: IEM's are very "personal" things and difficult to mix to everyone's saticfaction. I believe that a band that wants to used IEM's will bring their own. For a "hired" system, conventional monitors are the way to go. I attempted to get my band to use IEM's and it was a non-starter.

 

I run active speakers - JBL PRX 515's. I don't have to worry about matching amp to speaker or crossovers. The fact that they are bi-amplified makes for better sound than a single amp and passive crossover. I haven't gotten around to replacing the floor monitors (they belong to another band member) yet, but I would love to have active speakers for the monitors.

 

I haven't gotten around to subwoofers yet, because we don't have storage or transport space for them. If I do get subs, I will probably stick with the JBL PRX series.

 

I run an older Yamaha mixer (which wouldn't fill your bill). It fits into the single flip-top rack case - which is pretty convenient - but a little hefty to lift into the drummer's van.

[dkbmusic]

What brands do you have access to? This is an important detail.

 

Peavey is my preference due to the fact that we stock them. However, most of the everyday brands are probably available to me...

 

Keep the replies coming. It's very useful info. And as to my original comments, please keep in mind I'm not very knowledgeable!

[dcastar]

 

No guessing, no carrying amps, better protection, built-in processing/crossover and you think it's a pain? Here's my suggested PA: FOH 2 HPR181 2 HPR122 MONITORS 4 SXA250 MIXER Presonus Studiolive (all processing is built-in) ________________________________________________________________ I listed equipment that I either own or have worked with (except the mixer) and can vote for the sound and construction. Also, it doesn't get any easier to setup or tear-down. Good luck!

 

 

 

100% Agree with what he said! That's going to be the most simple, least amount of gear carried - type setup.

 

You could go all QSC and grab the HPR122i's for floor monitors as well. Or even the little QSC K10s make nice Floor Monitors.

 

Or if you want an Analog board, grab the Allen & Heath MixWiz3, couple it with a DBX Driverack PX and a 166xl for a couple channels of compression where needed. You'll be golden.

[monkeyland]

Peavey is my preference due to the fact that we stock them. However, most of the everyday brands are probably available to me... Keep the replies coming. It's very useful info. And as to my original comments, please keep in mind I'm not very knowledgeable!

 

would you have access to other brands through any other sources if you wanted? i know that when i worked in a music store i could get all kinds of stuff that we didn't technically sell just because the brand used the same reps or distribution. some were very high end brands but because we were a shop we could call a rep and order pieces on the side(whos going to turn down a sale?).

 

it would be awesome to be able to get a really great price on an Allen and Heath board or something cool like that but go with Peavey for your speakers and other items that take more wear and tear.

[jwlussow]

 

Cons: - Less scalable? - Component failure may render the entire unit unusable - AC power to each box (but creative solutions exist)

 

 

Less scalable? Just buy another powered speaker. Couldn't be easier. With passive you need to pay close attention to your amps output to determine if you need more amps. Powered systems are as scalable as you want them to be.

 

Component failure, internal or external, can cause failure. It is easier to just replace a fried external amp but usually when the amp fries, it will take the passive speakers with it.

 

The power to each speaker is really the only drawback I see. A quad box on each side of the stage can make this a minor problem

[agedhorse]

 

Less scalable? Just buy another powered speaker. Couldn't be easier. With passive you need to pay close attention to your amps output to determine if you need more amps. Powered systems are as scalable as you want them to be. Component failure, internal or external, can cause failure. It is easier to just replace a fried external amp but usually when the amp fries, it will take the passive speakers with it. The power to each speaker is really the only drawback I see. A quad box on each side of the stage can make this a minor problem

 

 

Agreed.

[GCDEF]

I've never used IEMs, but here's my speculation on them.

 

First, I hate headphones, and I imagine IEMs are similar. Wearing headphones in the studio just doesn't feel anywhere near the same as hearing and feeling the band. Maybe it takes getting used to and maybe IEMs are different, but I'd miss the feel of the band.

 

I'm thinking their main advantage would be on bigger stages where you can move around a lot, so that no matter where you are on stage, you hear the same thing. On typical bar stages where you're confined to a pretty small space, that's not really important.

 

Communication. Seems like it would be hard to hear or speak to people in the audience, or even other band members. For a big concert and a well orchestrated performance, that's not an issue, but again, for typical small club and bar work, I want to hear what people are saying.

 

As I said, I've never used them, so it's entirely possible I'm completely wrong.

 

As to the powered speakers, I think they're much easier. Less to carry, less to plug in. We already have power all over the stage for amps and effects, so the power thing seems like a non-issue to me.

[jwlussow]

We use IEMs and like them. There is a learning curve and a period where you have to get used to what they do and don't do. My IEM has an ambient lav mic that attaches to the bodypack. I can control the amount of ambient sound that is let into my IEM. At full volume, the feeling is almost exactly the same as walking around with out earbuds but a little louder. I can hold conversations and the people will never even realize that I have the earbuds in.

 

There are also some downsides to that as once my wireless mics battery died during a show and I didn't know it because I heard myself fine through the ambient mic. We are much tighter and have a little extra room on stage because we dumped the wedges. It took some getting used to but we will not even consider going back to wedges.

[allexcosta]

 

You could go all QSC and grab the HPR122i's for floor monitors as well. Or even the little QSC K10s make nice Floor Monitors

 

 

Great option too... I mentioned the SXA250's because folks that I play with like some kick and bass on their monitors and the 15's on the EV's handle a lot of lows without effort.

[jgthatsme]

Check out the RCF ART Series if you can get RCF gear (www.rcf.it). I liked the QSC HPR stuff and almost went with it a while back, but the RCF stuff is 30% lighter and the sound is fantastic. RCF ART522A w/ RCF ART705AS subs for front and a few RCF ART522A or ART322A for stage monitors...or step up the the newer RCF ART 7 Series. I think the only major difference is the 5 series uses third party amps and while the 7 series uses RCF amps.

[Jerry007]

 

Less scalable? Just buy another powered speaker. Couldn't be easier. With passive you need to pay close attention to your amps output to determine if you need more amps. Powered systems are as scalable as you want them to be. Component failure, internal or external, can cause failure. It is easier to just replace a fried external amp but usually when the amp fries, it will take the passive speakers with it. The power to each speaker is really the only drawback I see. A quad box on each side of the stage can make this a minor problem

 

 

Don't get me wrong - I'd recommend my PRX setup to anyone, especially for someone like the OP... But I'll explain my views a little further:

 

Scalable - I'll suggest with that with separate components, there are more/different options available at upgrade time, sometimes using a different configuration of existing gear, bridging amps, etc. I agree that it's "easier" to buy another powered speaker, but it certainly might not be the most economical solution.

 

Component failure - Let's flip your scenario around: If I blow a speaker, I'm stuck with an amp in a box that I can't use until I get it repaired.

 

Power to speaker: As you mentioned, fairly easy to deal with using various options.

[jwlussow]

 

Don't get me wrong - I'd recommend my PRX setup to anyone, especially for someone like the OP... But I'll explain my views a little further: Scalable - I'll suggest with that with separate components, there are more/different options available at upgrade time, sometimes using a different configuration of existing gear, bridging amps, etc. I agree that it's "easier" to buy another powered speaker, but it certainly might not be the most economical solution. Component failure - Let's flip your scenario around: If I blow a speaker, I'm stuck with an amp in a box that I can't use until I get it repaired. Power to speaker: As you mentioned, fairly easy to deal with using various options.

 

 

In my eyes, a blown speaker or a blown amp will kill a show unless you have a spare. The odds of blowing a powered speaker is much lower then blowing a speaker with an external amp. The component system will also require more outboard gear to properly run it. You will need an amp and crossover for components where most powered speakers already have crossover capability installed.

 

I guess these differences are really pretty minor, especially if the operator knows what they are doing. The weight and proper power advantages still have my leaning towards powered speakers for ease of setup and ease of use.

[agedhorse]

Failed speaker or failed amp are pretty much a 50%-50% proposition. Having a spare powered speaker solves both scenarios with a single piece.

[dkbmusic]

After reading your responses, and doing several searches, I'm starting to think maybe I should consider heavily the powered mains option. I currently own two SRM450's. I could either sell those and replace with a matched set of something else, or I could just purchase two powered subs. What would you all suggest?

[monkeyland]

 

After reading your responses, and doing several searches, I'm starting to think maybe I should consider heavily the powered mains option. I currently own two SRM450's. I could either sell those and replace with a matched set of something else, or I could just purchase two powered subs. What would you all suggest?

 

 

keep those speakers and use them for now. a lot of people on here don't like them but they will at least get you through. get some good subs. the best that you can afford and since you already have some powered tops go powered on that too. then once you've got that going you can think about upgrading the tops if you want and relegate the srm450s to monitor duty.

[allexcosta]

 

After reading your responses, and doing several searches, I'm starting to think maybe I should consider heavily the powered mains option. I currently own two SRM450's. I could either sell those and replace with a matched set of something else, or I could just purchase two powered subs. What would you all suggest?

 

 

Well, since you have the money and can get a huge discount, here's how I'd do it:

 

FOH:

 

2 ZXA5

1 LS801P

 

MONITORS:

 

2 SRM450

2 SXA250

 

MIXER:

 

Presonus Livestudio

 

_________________________________________________________________

 

Yes, I played through a LS800P past weekend and that thing thumps like there's no tomorrow... I think one should be enough. Or just copy what I wrote up there and replace 2 SXA's with 2 SRM's. If you want "loud like nobody's business", I think the ZXA5's are hard to beat...

[Shaster]

Seems like the "twist" has been forgotten.

 

Sounds like dkbmusic wants a system that sounds good - good enough to make other people want to get something similar. In that light if Peavey or Mackie are your mainstays, it might be worthwhile to make those brands work. I would try an all Peavey FOH, and maybe Mackies for monitors (don't let them get too hot though).

 

QSC.... are nice but if you're trying to move gear, and get a better mark-up, AND keep your dealer status, then I think you might need to go there first.

 

But don't get a Mackie board, get the Peavey.

[GCDEF]

There's nothing wrong with the 450s as mains. I use them and they sound pretty good. Unless you need ear-slitting volume, they'll cover 100 - 200 people if you add subs. I wouldn't use them as monitors though. I've tried it with mine twice and both times they've overheated and shut down.

 

I think you'd find that mixer too small for a six piece band plus a horn section. Stop and figure out how many inputs you really need. I personally wouldn't count anything that wasn't a real mic input as a channel.

[cappttenron]

I have passive speakers Yorkville elite 12s and 10s for monitors. I like them alot and have been bulletproof for me. Oh and dont let me forget they are really loud when you need it. I use a 350 watt per side amp at 4 ohms and those 12s are more than loud enough for a moderate volume outdoor show.

 

That being said I saw two guitarists with qsc powered speakers last night and they sounded great. I think they were the k10s. Most small bands arent playing to rooms with 500 people. Maybe a 100 or more at the most.

 

I would give these a serious listen maybe the k12s are probably a little louder. In a pinch if one speaker shut down you could get through a show either using one of your monitors and limping on one main.

 

If they had had those qsc when I was buying equipment I might have bought them. On the other hand the Yorkville stuff has been bulletproof and a friend has a rental business and tells me the Yorkville stuff is the most reliable in his inventory for taking abuse.

 

Cappttenron

[allexcosta]

 

Seems like the "twist" has been forgotten. Sounds like dkbmusic wants a system that sounds good - good enough to make other people want to get something similar. In that light if Peavey or Mackie are your mainstays, it might be worthwhile to make those brands work.

 

 

He says he can get anything. I believe selling EV would be more profitable... Or not...