Mic to Feedback Elim. to Mixer?!?

[bumbler]

If I'm running a Sabine 900 and it says to run out of the mixer then into the 900 then into the amp...can I simply go from a mic to the 900 then into the mixer? I only want 1 mic to be on this feedback eliminator (for idiots who can't propery use a mic!). tia.

Bumbler

[Mogwix]

Use the feedback eliminator as an insert on the mic channel.

 

It has no preamp so you can't plug the mic straight into it.

[NUSound]

Why do you need a feedback eliminator and who are these 'idiots' that don't know how to use a mic? In general, adding equipment will only cover up the problem, but solving the problem at the source is usually cheaper and more effective.

[TGAMRock]

Mogwix is right. If you MUST use it, just insert it on that channel.

[bumbler]

 

Why do you need a feedback eliminator and who are these 'idiots' that don't know how to use a mic? In general, adding equipment will only cover up the problem, but solving the problem at the source is usually cheaper and more effective.

 

 

I'm using the feedback eliminator to get more gain on one mic. The lead singer needs more gain so he doesn't have to scream all night (thereby losing his voice). Drums & guitars are loud, due to the type of music. There are no idiots. I don't have an engineer running the board to eq out the feedback freq's so figure i'd let a feedback elim. do it (it reacts a wee bit faster than a board op...juuuust a wee bit...).

 

Mogwix, When you say insert on the mic channel, do you mean an f/x insert?

[tlbonehead]

I'm using the feedback eliminator to get more gain on one mic. The lead singer needs more gain so he doesn't have to scream all night (thereby losing his voice). Drums & guitars are loud, due to the type of music. There are no idiots. I don't have an engineer running the board to eq out the feedback freq's so figure i'd let a feedback elim. do it (it reacts a wee bit faster than a board op...juuuust a wee bit...). Mogwix, When you say insert on the mic channel, do you mean an f/x insert?

the insert jack on that mixer channel.

[Shaster]

What kind of mic, mixer, FOH speakers, and monitors are you using. Are you already using a 31 band EQ on your singer's monitor. Has he tried IEMs?

 

Perhaps the issues lie in improper or inadequate gear/set-up. I'm sure the Sabine is a fine product. Just trying to make sure that it's the piece of gear you really need.

[bumbler]

 

What kind of mic, mixer, FOH speakers, and monitors are you using. Are you already using a 31 band EQ on your singer's monitor. Has he tried IEMs? Perhaps the issues lie in improper or inadequate gear/set-up. I'm sure the Sabine is a fine product. Just trying to make sure that it's the piece of gear you really need.

 

 

FOH + Monitors = 2 Bose L1's

Mackie Mixer, not sure of the model (it's packed away), 12 to 16 channels?

All other singers mic volumes are plenty loud, with no feedback at all. But the lead performs some pretty dynamic vocals...and I hate it when he eats the mic to get more volume. Maybe a compressor? WTF, I don't know what would work best for this sitch...

if you're a bose hater, don't bother responding with the "get a REAL system" as a solution. Recently went back to the FOH and wedge monitor system...blech:eekphil:

Again, thank you all for your input.

Bumbler

[moody]

 

FOH + Monitors = 2 Bose L1's Mackie Mixer, not sure of the model (it's packed away), 12 to 16 channels? All other singers mic volumes are plenty loud, with no feedback at all. But the lead performs some pretty dynamic vocals...and I hate it when he eats the mic to get more volume. Maybe a compressor? WTF, I don't know what would work best for this sitch... if you're a bose hater, don't bother responding with the "get a REAL system" as a solution. Recently went back to the FOH and wedge monitor system...blech:eekphil: Again, thank you all for your input. Bumbler

 

 

 

What on earth is wrong with eating the mic? It's a way of getting more bass and more gain before feedback. My own band we all eat the mics and back the bass of a bit at the mixer - way better than trying to get that 3cm more gain out of the system.

 

A compressor is designed for evening out signals and is generally needed out the front (not near the mics) - in a monitor situation it will cause feedback

[agedhorse]

You have discovered the limitations of your system and in part, the position of the mic relative to the speakers under higher gain conditions.

 

Maybe the feedback eliminator will work for you, maybe it won't.

 

Conventional monitors may or may not perform better.

 

You have chosen to stick with your approach, good luck making it work.

[moody]

 

if you're a bose hater, don't bother responding with the "get a REAL system" as a solution. Recently went back to the FOH and wedge monitor system...blech:eekphil:

 

 

Not a bose hater, but saying that a FOH and wedge monitor system is blech is being rather narrow minded. I know some can sound awful, I also know that others can sound superb. The Bose is great within its limited field of use - and high gain vocals with a loud rock band is not within that field. HOWEVER, a wedge monitor, depending on its quality level may also not be within that field. A personal set of in-ear monitors should virtually eliminate feedback - but that is a very different choice.

 

PS. If you were going by the 'proper' method of using your Bose then you wouldn't have a mixer either.

[Mogwix]

if you're a bose hater, don't bother responding with the "get a REAL system" as a solution. Recently went back to the FOH and wedge monitor system...blech

[Shaster]

I wonder if your singer likes the L1's as much as you do. Could be that he's looking for the traditional focused monitor sound, and over singing because of that.

 

Lots of people like Bose systems. I don't personally, but they certainly have their applications. Just not sure if a band with loud guitars and drums would be the right application. Guess it depends on how loud, loud is.

 

In any case, as already stated, if the Sabine helps you fit a square peg into a round hole, then all is good I suppose.

 

Because the lead singer will hopefully be louder (but unfortunately everywhere) I hope you can avoid the volume wars, or you'll be right back where you started!

[bumbler]

Again, thanks all for input....

 

 

Because the lead singer will hopefully be louder (but unfortunately everywhere) I hope you can avoid the volume wars, or you'll be right back where you started!

 

 

LOL! You're right, it's a matter of everyone being less egotistical and more "team" oriented. Lead singer does love the bose...he can hear all members so harmonies are tight. Also, he goes into the audience and loves how far the bose throws sound.

 

Mogwix=good advice...I will EQ out the feedback to the best of my ability...any suggestion as to which freq's are typically the troublemakers? I'm sure each set up will have their own issues, but if there are a few bastard children of feedback, I'd like to know ahead of time.

 

Moody - FOH & wedges aren't blech, just a completely different feel. Used them my whole life and they've been great, but after using the bose, there's never the "monitors sound good...but how does the mix sound out there?!?" What is the audience actually hearing? No question anymore. Actually, I recently played a church venue with an incredible FOH/Wedge system (NOT Bose) and with an engineer/board op...wow! So, sorry if I offended, just a spoiled Bose user, I guess!

[dboomer]

 

it takes just a few minutes to ring out the problem frequencies with a 31-band EQ, and after that you don't need to touch it.

 

 

You do if a mic moves it's position because your vocalist moves about the stage. The frequencies that feedback can occur change. You would need to BOTH add additional filters AND remove preset filters. If you just leave them sitting you are removing signal/tone unnecessarily.

 

That's the beauty of dynamic filters that can change with your performance.

[dboomer]

 

.any suggestion as to which freq's are typically the troublemakers? I'm sure each set up will have their own issues,

 

 

Yes ... each setup is unique. You may find some frequencies that commonly cause you problems with YOUR system that may be no problem in another system. There is nothing typical.

[Ed Storer]

I found that using a "feedback destroyer" (not a Sabine, nor a name that I care to mention in this forum) that it was hearing any note sustained for more than 4 beats as feedback and cutting the frequency.

 

Even when I limited the filters to 3, it was doing more to make the music sound weird (like dropping the fader for the 6-count D-note that opens the song for the whole song) than effectively controlling feedback.

 

If the lead singer has his own monitor mix, I would put the feedback controller just upstream of the power amp for his monitor, otherwise using a channel insert is the best solution.

[twostone]

If I'm running a Sabine 900 and it says to run out of the mixer then into the 900 then into the amp...can I simply go from a mic to the 900 then into the mixer? I only want 1 mic to be on this feedback eliminator (for idiots who can't propery use a mic!). tia. Bumbler

 

No you misunderstood what their saying.

 

mixer>aux send out>SBX900>amp>wedges

 

or as most suggested here this routing application

 

mixer>mic channel>SBX 900>channel insert>mic>singer>

 

Old timers will always tell you to use a 31 band eq because you can notch out the offending FB frequency, but not always the case when using multiple makes and models of mics. Then you have to insert a 31 band eq to each different make and model of mic channel, because a general eq sweep of the monitor mix with different makes and models of mics can degrade the monitor mix to the point is sounds sick, because each different make and model of mics might ring at a different frequency then the other mics like I experienced in the past.

 

The FBX 900 is a decent FB unit I use the FBX2400 myself along with proper monitor to mic placement and try to keep stage volume to a minimum. This works wonders as Dbommer will vouch that 31 band eq have wider filters then the FBX and can degrade your monitor mix somewhat vs the narrower filters on the FBX 900 which is like a semi parametric eq just has way more filters.

 

Also here's you a link to practicing notching out FB frequencies and help train your ears and familiarize yourself using a 31 band eq.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/sft/

[Mogwix]

 

Then you have to insert a 31 band eq to each different make and model of mic channel

 

Geez, that's going a little far.

 

I have a channel of 31-band EQ per output. I don't mix vocal mics on stage very much but when I do, the method for ringing out the monitors is the same... albeit a little more tricky.

 

I never have a problem with the monitor mix sounding {censored}ty after EQ, unless I'm in a terrible room with awful acoustics and a band that's WAY too loud.

[moody]

 

Old timers will always tell you to use a 31 band eq because you can notch out the offending FB frequency, but not always the case when using multiple makes and models of mics. Then you have to insert a 31 band eq to each different make and model of mic channel, because a general eq sweep of the monitor mix with different makes and models of mics can degrade the monitor mix to the point is sounds sick, because each different make and model of mics might ring at a different frequency then the other mics like I experienced in the past. http://sourceforge.net/projects/sft/

 

 

I actually find that different makes / models of mic are generally not an issue. Why? Because the person that wants to hear a given mic the most is the one using it.

 

For each monitor I set the eq so that the mic associated with it does not feed back - the other mics need not be as loud and are unlikely to be an issue for feedback.

 

This does not apply if you have shared monitor mixes - but I far prefer individual mixes when possible.

[twostone]

Geez, that's going a little far. I have a channel of 31-band EQ per output. I don't mix vocal mics on stage very much but when I do, the method for ringing out the monitors is the same... albeit a little more tricky. I never have a problem with the monitor mix sounding {censored}ty after EQ, unless I'm in a terrible room with awful acoustics and a band that's WAY too loud.

 

Now hold up there Mogwix, try using 4 different {censored}ty mics on one monitor mix and see if inserting the eq yields better results with ringing out. I tried the rule of thumb approach like your posting. I didn't have any FB and the monitors would blow your head off but the mix wasn't the greatest monitor mix. Maybe your just a better sound guy then I am. Beside this was advise giving to me here a long time ago when I first started out with the crappy gear I had at the time. All I can say it worked at the time.

 

The best thing the OP can do is us a 31 band eq per output as you said and learn the ringing out application and then use the FBX 900 on the insert as a safety net. Not sure about which oder the FBX 900 and comp/limiter he's wanting to use on the same insert. I'm assuming the comp/limiter first then the FBX 900.