Getting right sound from keys

[sarqoz]

Hi guys,

 

 

 

At home I have a wonderful sweet sound running my Nord C1 straight into the mixing console without any EQ on the mixer when I'm not using my Leslie. On the channel where I hook up my synth module I usually dial in the slightest bit of mid boost to get a more faithful piano sound. This sounds great when just playing and it works too while recording into Cubase with that settings.

 

Last week in the practising room (first time with the C1) I had a difficult time to get that right sound. Especially on the organ channel I had to dial in quite some lo-mid and mid EQ to get the right sound, since it sounded way too thinny to my liking.

 

I know the EQ's have been invented to just that: shaping the sound to your liking. I am more of a purist when it comes to EQing, trying to capture the pure sound of the instrument. Is it OK though, to tweak the hell out of it? I don't know how you guys cope with that during live performance. Thanks!

[Craig Vecchione]

Every room is unique, and they change (well, the acoustics change, if not the room itself) as temperature, humidity and the number and location of water bags (humans) changes during a performance. Additionally, our hearing fatigues as the show progresses, and we tend to lose some hf and mid sensitivity, especially if our hearing is less than ideal to start with.

 

Note that your home location may have great acoustics, OR it may simply be that your ears are acustomed to that particular sound, so to you it sounds "right". Be sure to check with others for their opinions.

[sarqoz]

 

Note that your home location may have great acoustics, OR it may simply be that your ears are acustomed to that particular sound, so to you it sounds "right". Be sure to check with others for their opinions.

 

 

Thank you. The other band members complained about a thin sounding organ too. After I messed with the EQ a bit, it sounded better.

 

The next time I will try and fiddle with the organ level output and the mixer's in and output. The mixer output VU LEDs never reached the 0 dB mark, so I guess that the input level setting wasn't right in the first place. A good loud clean input signal comes through cleaner, right?

[IsildursBane]

 

Thank you. The other band members complained about a thin sounding organ too. After I messed with the EQ a bit, it sounded better.

 

 

There could be something faulty somewhere. Is this all the same equipment or do you have a separate PA at the practice space?

 

 

The mixer output VU LEDs never reached the 0 dB mark, so I guess that the input level setting wasn't right in the first place.

 

 

That doesn't mean anything.

 

-Dan.

[sarqoz]

 

There could be something faulty somewhere. Is this all the same equipment or do you have a separate PA at the practice space?

 

 

At the practise room we have an Allen & Heath powered mixer plus Dynacord speakers and subs. That room is soundproofed heavily and the acoustics are very, very dry.

 

At home I use a Behringer mixer with a Tresham Audio amplifier and some hifi speakers. The speakers are due for replacement.

 

At both places I run the organs left and right outputs straight into the mixer with the same cables: one stereo channel on the Behringer and two mono channels on the A&H, panned left and right a bit. I will check though if one of these mono channels has its phase reversed---I'm not sure about that.

 

Thanks.

[jimmymio]

First off: Not sure about the C1 but the Nord electros are notorious for wimpy outputs. Most people use a TRS cable and run out of the headphone to get a hotter signal.

AS for EQ, use it, that's what it is there for. It's a digital keyboard, no reason to be a purist.

Also, if I understood you correctly, you were EQing the C1 before going into Cubase. Unless you are using a hi-end hardware EQ like a Manley, Massenburg etc., there is no reason to EQ before committing to track. It's so easy to add EQ on a DAW after recording and you maintain the flexibility to change it at any time. The way you want to EQ something can change dramatically after you star adding overcubs etc.

JP

[Craig Vecchione]

 

That doesn't mean anything. -Dan.

 

 

Or it might. There's definitely no requirement for the output to hit 0dB in order to have good gain staging. In general, taking your gain early in the signal chain will result in better signal-to-noise ratio. But you need to be sure a hot mixer signal doesn't clip something further down the chain, and for that matter be sure the mixer itself isn't clipping in order to drive that much gain.

[agedhorse]

 

First off: Not sure about the C1 but the Nord electros are notorious for wimpy outputs. Most people use a TRS cable and run out of the headphone to get a hotter signal. AS for EQ, use it, that's what it is there for. It's a digital keyboard, no reason to be a purist. Also, if I understood you correctly, you were EQing the C1 before going into Cubase. Unless you are using a hi-end hardware EQ like a Manley, Massenburg etc., there is no reason to EQ before committing to track. It's so easy to add EQ on a DAW after recording and you maintain the flexibility to change it at any time. The way you want to EQ something can change dramatically after you star adding overcubs etc. JP

 

 

I sure hope they aren't running the headphone TRS into a balanced input. That's a recipe for terrible sound because the headphone left/right are primarily in phase with each other but the differential amp in the balanced input will take the difference of the common signal and cancel out. What you will be left with is the difference between the two channels which is unlikely to be acceptable to even the lowest standards.

[sarqoz]

 

Or it might. There's definitely no requirement for the output to hit 0dB in order to have good gain staging. In general, taking your gain early in the signal chain will result in better signal-to-noise ratio. But you need to be sure a hot mixer signal doesn't clip something further down the chain, and for that matter be sure the mixer itself isn't clipping in order to drive that much gain.

 

 

Thanks. A good signal-to-noise ratio is something to aim for indeed.

 

At the practise room the mixers main output VU doesn't come to the 0 dB mark - when I raise the level to the point where it does reach the 0 dB mark, the whole thing gets too loud as the power amp is driven wide open.

 

Will it work to lower the volume of the power amp and raise the output of the mixer itself?

 

Thing is these rooms are used by other bands also (the PA systems are mainly used for vocal amplification) and the controls are re-set daily! I will check for any phase cancelling going on using a headphone the next time we woodshed. I'm rather hesitant too to use the headphone output. In that respect I'd pull out some DI boxes and balance it properly.

[jimmymio]

 

I sure hope they aren't running the headphone TRS into a balanced input. That's a recipe for terrible sound because the headphone left/right are primarily in phase with each other but the differential amp in the balanced input will take the difference of the common signal and cancel out. What you will be left with is the difference between the two channels which is unlikely to be acceptable to even the lowest standards.

 

 

Sorry should have mentioned that this is for running the board in stereo and the cord used is a TRS to (2) TS 1/4".

JP

[agedhorse]

 

Thanks. A good signal-to-noise ratio is something to aim for indeed. At the practise room the mixers main output VU doesn't come to the 0 dB mark - when I raise the level to the point where it does reach the 0 dB mark, the whole thing gets too loud as the power amp is driven wide open. Will it work to lower the volume of the power amp and raise the output of the mixer itself? Thing is these rooms are used by other bands also (the PA systems are mainly used for vocal amplification) and the controls are re-set daily! I will check for any phase cancelling going on using a headphone the next time we woodshed. I'm rather hesitant too to use the headphone output. In that respect I'd pull out some DI boxes and balance it properly.

 

 

Thye main output meter does not need to reach 0, in fact the difference in noise level is almost nothing. That meter reads output level, if it goes up the volume goes up too.

[sarqoz]

Last time we practised was in a room with the same Allen & Heath powered mixer, but now parted with a pair of good old ElectroVoice S200 speakers. That setup sounded fantastic! It seems like these EV's can build up more pressure than the big Dynacord speakers + subs.

[agedhorse]

Or there's something very wrong with the other set-up? The difference should not be so much IME. Could something be broken? Hooked up wrong?

[Russell1234]

 

Or there's something very wrong with the other set-up? The difference should not be so much IME. Could something be broken? Hooked up wrong?

 

 

Aged - do you know if his keyboard combination would be good with DI boxes?

[agedhorse]

 

Aged - do you know if his keyboard combination would be good with DI boxes?

 

 

Should work just fine.

[sarqoz]

 

Or there's something very wrong with the other set-up? The difference should not be so much IME. Could something be broken? Hooked up wrong?

 

 

The only thing I can think of is some phase cancelling going on. I haven't been in that room since and wasn't able to check.

[agedhorse]

 

The only thing I can think of is some phase cancelling going on. I haven't been in that room since and wasn't able to check.

 

 

Certainly a possibility, or taking a left-right stereo feed (headphones???) into a balanced input causing the same (essentially) thing.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Thanks. A good signal-to-noise ratio is something to aim for indeed.

 

 

It's not a bad thing to aim for, but by no means anything to fret about with modern gear. In most cases you can really screw up the gain staging and still have a very quiet result. It's much more important that you not clip any stage of the system, and that you have ample gain to drive the amplifier to expected output levels.

[sarqoz]

Certainly a possibility, or taking a left-right stereo feed (headphones???) into a balanced input causing the same (essentially) thing.

 

I plugged it into a unbalanced stereo channel of the mixer, using the organs left and right outputs. Later I used two unbalanced mono channels, panned left and right. Should be OK, innit? It could be that the speakers were connected the wrong way around, making left right and vice versa, but this normally shouldn't cause phase cancelling.

 

Next time when I come across this problem I will try to hook the organ up mono first. If it sounds thinny then: the whole system is culprit; if it sounds good: there's something fishy going on. I'll bring along my headphones too.

 

Would a DI vouch for a good sound? Or would it give me just a balanced version of the same thing?

[agedhorse]

DI would just balance the signal, probably not going to help other than make things better isolated for noise sake.

 

Time to take a little bit more time to play around trying to uncover the problem. Does it do this using only left or only right output from the keyboard?

[Craig Vecchione]

Is the problem a thin sound while the rest of the band is playing, or solo in that room?

 

Is there any setup (keys, amp, speakers) that you can use in the practice room and at home to compare apples with apples, and eliminate the room as a part of the problem? As you describe this, there are a lot of variables in the system.