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Live mic suggestions: condenser or dynamic?


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Hi all! :)

I'm writing this thread because I'd really like to have some advices about microphones, since I'm gonna buy one soon.

 

This is the thing: I'm the lead vocalist/guitar player of a rock/alternative-rock band and after a few years of gigs, I got tired of my vocal rig (Shure SM58 first, Shure Beta58 now). I've never been too much happy with those so I feel like it's time to choose another microphone but here comes the hardest part: which one should I pick?

 

Just to give you an idea of my needs...

 

 

WHAT I LIKE: I know it can sound banal but I like the sound of condenser microphones much more than dynamics, the unique feeling they give to the singer and the way they reproduce the voice. So that's the starting point in my research but obviously there are also stage needs that cannot be ignored which make the choice harder.

 

WHAT I PLAY: rock/alternative-rock music, mostly electric.

 

WHERE I PLAY: mostly small to mid-size clubs, small stages, usually non-professional PA systems (well, I mean not totally bad but surely not pro), pretty loud volumes, sometimes noise and feedback problems due to small stages, non-pro PAs and sound engineers etc.

Besides I use a Sennheiser EW300 G2 IEM system, sometimes paired with floor monitor(s).

 

 

I'm taking in consideration some brands and models for my purchase; I give you a quick list:

 

 

 

CONDENSERS

 

 

 

Neumann KMS 105

 

neumanne.jpg

 

Supercardioid pattern, 20Hz - 20KHz frequency range, 4,5 mV/pA sensitivity.

 

 

 

 

Audix VX10

 

audixvx10.jpg

 

Cardioid pattern, 40Hz - 20kHz frequency range, 24 mV/Pa sensitivity. There's also a low-output version of this microphone (VX10-Lo) sharing the same specs but with a less sensitivity (4 mV/Pa).

 

 

 

 

Audix VX5

 

audixvx5.jpg

 

Supercardioid pattern, 40Hz - 16,5kHz frequency range, 5 mV/Pa sensitivity.

 

 

 

 

Sennheiser e965

 

sennheisere965.jpg

 

Selectable pattern (cardioid/supercardioid), 40Hz - 20kHz frequency range, 7 mV/Pa or 2,3 mV/Pa sensitivity (switchable preattenuation). There's also a switchable bass roll-off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

DYNAMICS

 

 

 

Audix OM6

 

audixom6.jpg

 

Hypercardioid pattern, 40Hz - 19kHz frequency range, 1,5 mV/pA sensitivity. As reported on the Audix website, this one shows a sort of "condenser" mic behavior and is more forgiving than the OM5 or (even more) the OM7 if you don't sing really close or out of the mic.

 

 

 

Audix OM5

 

audixom5.jpg

 

Hypercardioid pattern, 48Hz - 19kHz frequency range, 1,8 mV/pA sensitivity. A "classic" OM series choice along with the OM6 with a mid-range boost helping voice to cut through the mix.

 

 

 

Audix OM7

 

audixom7.jpg

 

Hypercardioid pattern, 48Hz - 19kHz frequency range, 0,8 mV/Pa sensitivity.

Probably the best known OM series' mic for its feedback reduction; as far as Audix (and Rat Sounds too) says, this mic doesn't work well with non-pro PA systems due to its unconventional low output which tends to amplify noises and stuffs like that.

 

 

 

Sennheiser e945

 

sennheisere945.jpg

 

Supercardioid pattern, 40Hz - 18kHz frequency range, 2 mV/Pa sensitivity.

 

 

Guided by personal tastes, I'd go for a condenser mic (Neumann KMS 105 above all) but the fact that I need to use it in my common live situations, makes me think more than twice about it. Also, talking about dynamics, I found out that - according to what I like - Audix OM6 would be the best choice but I'm a little bit worried about how it can interact with bad PA systems when I've to face one (for ex. I seem to understand that OM7 - even if it would be the way to go in terms of feedback rejection - wouldn't be easy to manage in that situations).

 

Considering what I told, which one would you choose?

 

Thanks a lot for attention! :thu:

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I hate to ask (seeing the size of your post) but we need more info.

 

What exactly about your current setup don't you like?

 

What was better or worse about the Beta 58 compared to the sm58?

 

What condensor mics have you heard that make you prefer them?

 

Why do you have both in-ear and foldback wedges. Also, why do you have feedback problems with in-ears?

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Why do you have both in-ear and foldback wedges. Also, why do you have feedback problems with in-ears?

I mostly use in-ear only but sometimes - when backline allows it - I pair it with a floor monitor to keep my in-ear only for vocals and the other one for everything else in the mix. I get those feedback problems also during rehearsals in a soundproof room other than on stage, so I often have to adjust volume and EQ 'till the voice sounds even less full and natural and of course my band cannot ear it.

 

Anyway, just to give you a full picture, what I'm chasing above all is sound quality and "feeling" with the mic, something I always found in condensers but not in dynamics (though I gotta say I never tried Audix OMs, so I cannot tell if one of those I listed would be ok for me).

 

Thanks a lot for your interests! :)

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Audio-Technica AE6100 or Audix OM6 are my recommendations. Both are smooth, clear sounding mics with a wide response and excellent feedback rejection. The AE6100 has an excellent pop filter built in.

 

Audio-Technica AE3300 and AE5400 are high resolution condenser mics... consider those if you're bent on a condenser. I don't recommend these mics to you because you're not going to hear the benefit with a "non-pro" PA, especially on louder stages as these guys are a little less friendly with stage volume. Excellent mics, though.

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Audio-Technica AE6100 or Audix OM6 are my recommendations. Both are smooth, clear sounding mics with a wide response and excellent feedback rejection. The AE6100 has an excellent pop filter built in.


Audio-Technica AE3300 and AE5400 are high resolution condenser mics... consider those if you're bent on a condenser. I don't recommend these mics to you because you're not going to hear the benefit with a "non-pro" PA, especially on louder stages as these guys are a little less friendly with stage volume. Excellent mics, though.

Thanks man...while OM6 still pops up in my research, I've never heard of this Audio-Technica model. Considering their specs, which one would you consider "better"?

 

 

Audix OM6

audixom6data.th.jpg

 

 

Audio-Technica AE6100

audiotechnicaae6100spec.th.jpg

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Thanks man...while OM6 still pops up in my research, I've never heard of this Audio-Technica model. Considering their specs, which one would you consider "better"?

 

Try not to get caught up in specs. Freq response graphs can give you a vague idea of how the mic sounds (OM6 being very flat and wide, AE6100 a little brighter and clearer without EQ) but ultimately the mic is a small part of your system, and a spec sheet can't tell you how it'll sound with the rest of your rig.

 

Of the two, I'd get the Audio-Technica. It has a better pop filter and sounds a little clearer, and most all of my mics are Audio-Technica. The singer in my band uses an Audix OM7 (loud, heavy rap-rock) and that's the best mic for our application, in my experience. We've tried them all and always go back to the OM7. It has incredible GBF and the vocals cut clean through a loud mix.

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There are really a bunch that would be fine I'm sure but you have to test them to really get a feel for how they work with your voice and system. My fav's are the Ev ND 767a, the Senn E835 and a Shure beta 57. But would certainly be happy with most to all of the mic's on your list. A touch of EQ and they'll all be fine. I'd stay aware from most of those condensors if you have loud stage volume.

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There are really a bunch that would be fine I'm sure but you have to test them to really get a feel for how they work with your voice and system. My fav's are the Ev ND 767a, the Senn E835 and a Shure beta 57. But would certainly be happy with most to all of the mic's on your list. A touch of EQ and they'll all be fine. I'd stay aware from most of those condensors if you have loud stage volume.

Thanks a lot for your suggestions, I've heard good things about that EV but unfortunately I cannot find any store in my area with those brands and models in stock, so I'll have to order without testing it :(

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I can only speak of the mics I've used. The Sennheiser e965 & 945 are both good choices. The OM7 IS possibly the most feedback resistant mic I've ever used. It is true that most of the OM series have a lower than usual output but unless the PA is gain staged seriously wrong, it shouldn't present any huge problem (yes you will get a bit more noise (hiss) from the board front end but if it's loud electric music, It will easily be masked).

 

The mic you are looking for unfortunatly isn't made any more. It is an EV BK-1 (Black Night 1). It is an excelent sounding condenser with nice round bottom end, great extended highs but smooth as silk (no edge at all). A close second is a mic made by Groove Tubes called "the convertable". They sound very much like the BK-1 (and I believe are still in production).

 

The Neumann KMS 105 is, IMHO absolutly the wrong choice for what you want to do. They sound intimate and airy at low volumes but get boomy as all get out when you get on them. They also have a HUGE peak at around 10 - 12k that when EQ'd down to where it won't feed back leaves the mic sounding like kaka. They work great for intimate jazz vocals but for loud R&R they are almost a nightmare (believe me I've run into these mic many many times so my opinion is based on a lot of experiance with them).

 

that's my .02

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I love the sound of the EV RE410 for my voice. It's produces a very clear, complete, rich sound. I know one soundman that thinks the RE410 is "too bright," but most people who hear it readily notice the difference in sound quality when ABed with other mics. I also carry a beta 87a and SM58 for back-up in the event the house soundman can't get rid of the feedback caused by the RE410. It's a condenser, and you'll have to be careful about feedback, but if you have an IEM, you should have a lot less feedback problems.

The EV ND767 is also a really nice mic--very clear, distinct mid-range--for a very reasonable price. But definitely check out the RE410.

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All of the "best" grade vocal mics I've used pick up too much stage and/or monitor wash to be usefull for most of my gigs. This includes the KMS105, VX10, AE5400, PR22, E965,.....

 

I still prefer the OM7, although the OM6 and 767a are good sounding mics that have good rejection. I never liked the OM5. The OM3 is good. I like the 835 and 935. The Beta 87 is usable, as is the 945. The PL80a is getting good reviews. I've not trued the PR35.

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I think you're giving these mics a bit too much credit. Your choice in microphone is an important one, but not one that requires too much thought.

 

I can get an SM58 sounding wonderful in most all applications, and the differences between mics in 90% of situations is indiscernible, especially situations like yours. Remember that each channel strip on your board provides a power tone shaping tool; the EQ. As I said, the mic is only one small part of the entire signal chain. The biggest differences manifest as handling noise, feedback rejection, and durability.

 

I'll stick to my recommendation of the AE6100. It's what I use on my vocals and I'm very happy with it.

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I think you're giving these mics a bit too much credit. Your choice in microphone is an important one, but not one that requires too much thought.


I can get an SM58 sounding wonderful in most all applications, and the differences between mics in 90% of situations is indiscernible, especially situations like yours. Remember that each channel strip on your board provides a power tone shaping tool; the EQ. As I said, the mic is only one small part of the entire signal chain. The biggest differences manifest as handling noise, feedback rejection, and durability.


I'll stick to my recommendation of the AE6100. It's what I use on my vocals and I'm very happy with it.

I agree on this, but I tried Shures for years and I couldn't get neither that wonderful sound nor the "feeling" I'm looking. Besides our stage volumes are loud, but we play rock/alt. rock with almost clean vocals (no growl, scream etc.), not tight metal or stuffs like that so maybe the differeces - even if a loud stage is not a proper environment to appreciate all the subtle improvements a good gear can give - can be heard.

 

Anyway, you're giving me serious troubles with my choice now that I've discovered this Audio-Techica! :lol:

I've read that AE6100 can be too much bright and crispy on the high side...what d'you think about that?

 

Thanks to all of you guys for the suggestions...truly appreciated! :thu:

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I've read that AE6100 can be too much bright and crispy on the high side...what d'you think about that?

 

I don't have any problem with it, but if you do, just take the HF knob on your EQ and turn it down a few dB. It's kind of bright sounding, but it's not a thin sounding mic by any means (unlike the Beta 58, urgh). I never have a problem with the highs getting crunchy.

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I don't have any problem with it, but if you do, just take the HF knob on your EQ and turn it down a few dB. It's kind of bright sounding, but it's not a thin sounding mic by any means (unlike the Beta 58, urgh). I never have a problem with the highs getting crunchy.

...thanks again ;)

What about feedback rejection? Is it comparable with OM6?

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I think you're giving these mics a bit too much credit. Your choice in microphone is an important one, but not one that requires too much thought.


I can get an SM58 sounding wonderful in most all applications, and the differences between mics in 90% of situations is indiscernible, especially situations like yours. Remember that each channel strip on your board provides a power tone shaping tool; the EQ. As I said, the mic is only one small part of the entire signal chain. The biggest differences manifest as handling noise, feedback rejection, and durability.


I'll stick to my recommendation of the AE6100. It's what I use on my vocals and I'm very happy with it.

 

 

Wow. This is absolutly contrary to my way of thinking. The two most important pieces of equipment in the audio chain are the Microphones & the speakers (this predicts 90% of how your system will sound in any given environment). The electronics in between make the least difference. Transducers (the device that converts from one type of energy to another - In this case mechanical to electrical & visa versa) are by far and away the most design error prone. Things like phase coherency can not be fixed with an EQ (no matter how much you twist those knobs). It is far better to start with a good source (of course this starts with the player & their instrument :>), than to try to "fix it in the mix". Try mic modeler software sometime. There is no way you can make an SM57 sound like a 421U (both dynamic mics). I've tried it.

 

That said. Mic & speaker choice for a live environment is a far different animal than choosing one for studio (as agedhorse has pointed out - closed loop vs open loop systems). I do agree that handling noise, feedback rejection, and durability are important features to look for. Feedback, acoustics & bleed are major environmental variables that must be delt with (these are the tradeoffs that must be made in SR).

 

An added note for the OP. As a rule the tighter pattern a microphone has, the more proximity effect it has (that bottom boost you get in the closest 4" from the mic). Also the tighter the pattern the bigger the pickup lobe is 180 degrees off axis (a figure 8 has the best rejection of any mic - but it's at 90 degrees to the front & rear axis's). Cardioid mics work best with the monitor(s) at (for instance) 165 degrees off axis where as a supercardioid mic works better with the monitor(s) at (for instance) 150 degrees off axis from the address side.

 

Just some thoughts.

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I believe it was stated earlier, but my first thought when reading the original post was that the monitoring system might need improving before the mic.

 

I mean, it is important that you find a mic that matches your voice, and makes you happy, but your monitor/IEM can also let you down.

 

So, absolutely, try out a few different mics, but don't forget about the quality of your monitors/IEMs.

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Loud stage, that takes the 105 out of the equation for me. This is more of a problem in general for condensers that you are looking at, including the B-87's. The SM-87 is maybe a better choice, as is the 86, the EV BK-1 is a great mic too. I have a couple of mint condition used BK-1's available if you are interested, PM me.

 

Another mic I like for this kind of application is the CAD D-90 or D-189. A good balance between the benefits of both condensers and dynamics. Good handling noise and rejection too.

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I believe it was stated earlier, but my first thought when reading the original post was that the monitoring system might need improving before the mic.


I mean, it is important that you find a mic that matches your voice, and makes you happy, but your monitor/IEM can also let you down.


So, absolutely, try out a few different mics, but don't forget about the quality of your monitors/IEMs.

 

Sure that's a good point in terms of our own voice perception, but after upgrading to a Sennheiser IEM I can't complain on the monitoring side. Besides those negative spots of my mic are often noticed by sound engineers who told me more than once to try something better...just to say that it's not just my self-perception.

 

 

@ Mogwix: talking about Audio-Technica AE6100, is its feedback rejection comparable to OM6?

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One mic that hasn't been recommended is the Beta 57. They are nice & bright like a condenser and have a quite good pattern for feedback control. I don't personaly care for them as instrument mics, but they make pretty good vocal mics. They're worth a try anyway.

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One mic that hasn't been recommended is the Beta 57. They are nice & bright like a condenser and have a quite good pattern for feedback control. I don't personaly care for them as instrument mics, but they make pretty good vocal mics. They're worth a try anyway.

 

 

I know a very good singer that has one of these. He sounds fantastic through it, but I don't know if it's his voice or the mic - probably both.

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Hi,

thanks again for all your great suggestions! :thu:

 

I ended up buying an Audix OM7. I went to the store and luckily they had some fresh OMs to try! (I couldn't believe it actually ehehe :lol:)

I checked an OM3, OM5, OM6 and OM7: first of all they're great mics, no doubt: everyone sounds great in its own way, but personally there was something I didn't like when I tried the first ones.

 

For example I didn't like the mid boost on the OM5, the flat and open sound of the OM6 and the OM3 which seemed to me like a sort of OM6 with less bass and more mids. At the end of this test, I was a little bit disappointed especially because I was expecting something more from the OM6.

Don't misunderstand me, it's a great mic but I realized that it doesn't sound good with my voice, to my ears it was too open-sounding and flat.

 

At first I didn't look at the OM7 because I was a little worried about the low output but in the end I tried it and I was truly amazed! It's not just the feedback rejection, but the way it sounds. The guy at the store told me that some singer don't like it because of the tight pattern and the "closed-sounding" feel, so I was kinda skeptical when I picked it up.

 

Well, I cannot explain why, but when I first plugged it and started to sing, I really loved it!!! The way it handles my voice is simply amazing...I really don't know why, but it sounded more natural than the others with a flat EQ...truly amazing! :)

 

The only thing that worries me now is the low output...unfortunately our gear is not pro, so this can be a problem. Right now I've to crank the volume and gain almost all the way up to reach a good output, but it obviously sounds a little "weird" particularly on the high frequencies.

 

I was thinking about a simple preamp, something to push the volume of my mic in order to avoid the extreme settings on the PA.

There a lot of cheap tube preamp out there, but I just need something to boost the volume, nothing to mess up with the sound. What would you suggest?

 

I was thinking about this one (Studio Projects VTB1) since it seems reliable and it can be used also as a solid state preamp. What d'you think about it? Is there something better at a reasonable price (I need for live use, not recording)?

 

Thanks again! :thu:

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