Any tips for mixing live keyboards?

[jfunk82]

I'm a keys player and I always seem to have trouble with live sound, both stage mix and house mix. I'm constantly switching patches (piano, rhodes, organ, synth) and each requires significantly different volume.

 

At practice I am constantly using my volume pedal to increase/decrease volume depending on the patch and the part. It works in a small room with an amp right behind me, but I can't seem to rely on this personal control for a big room when I go direct into a PA.

 

Unlike a guitar player I don't have an amp on stage to monitor myself. I go direct (stereo) into the house PA and am totally at the mercy of the sound guy for my monitor mix and the live mix.

 

My friends always say they couldn't hear me, or the keys were too loud. It's very frustrating.

 

I feel like the only way it works is when the sound guy is actually mixing me live, turning me up and down throughout the song - but often after soundcheck he disappears and the levels stay set in stone.

 

Does anyone have any tips or suggestions for me?

[Crownman]

Set the levels on the keyboard itself for each of the patches. Get them as even as possible so you don't have to keep fiddling with it.

 

I work with people constantly that have crazy volume differences between patches and after a while I get real tired of having to ride the fader. I hate to say this but at times I've fixed the problem with a compressor. The lowest patch is at a good volume and all the others above it get whacked into shape by the comp.

[Coaster]

i have a volume control on my keyboards, and i use to to maintain a certain volume coming out of the keyboards. i can tell what that volume is with the 15" speaker pointing into my gut. it works quite well. i too am at the mercy of the soundguy (who is me) and run my keys direct into the mixer and treat my speaker like another wedge, its even powered by the wedge amp rack. i run it off aux3.

 

keyboard players with volume issues drive me batty. oh hell, anyone with volume issues drives me batty. usually its the guitard with the new pedalboard.

[Dogoth]

Almost every pro keyboard has the ability to set the final volume of each patch and the store it with the patch information. This isn't perfect in that the frequency response curve of the monitor you use to set that volume and the response curve of the P.A. used for performance will be different and patches vary a lot in where in the spectrum most of the percieved volume of the patch comes from but...... it will help a lot. The reason a volume pedal doesn't work perfectly is for the same reason as stated above (your monitor's tonality is probably a lot different than the FOH). This is essentialy an expansion on what Crowman said in an earlier post.

 

If you can, try to use something like a typical PA box from a typical venue you would play to set these volumes. This will help make the patches more consistent to the final listener.

 

I think that the factory patches vary a lot to optimise the S/N ratio (known in the digital world as bit depth) of each patch so that by it's self it will sound as good as possible. For studio this is great but for live it isn't.

 

That's my advice/opinion anyway.

[witesol]

i'm in a couple bands. one guy has no problem switching, the patches are always just about the right level. the other guy has no clue how to blend with the band no matter what we say it's different each gig.

I'd say record rehearsals with the patches having preset levels and fine tune from there. that way no soundman is adjusting, only you.

 

an amp would help if you are good at getting a feel how the boards fit in with the band. can't you bring it to the bigger gigs anyhow?

[stunningbabe]

If you are a good keyboard player...you will know how to adjust the volume for each patch with the volume slider (in real time) each time you change the patch. My keyboard player is excellent in this. Never had any volume problem at all with him.

[scarecrowbob]

Part of me says that you should hire a sound guy that stays through the set.

 

Have you considered maybe just having four discrete sends to the sound board so they can be set and eq'd on different channels?

[Dogoth]

 

If you are a good keyboard player...you will know how to adjust the volume for each patch with the volume slider (in real time) each time you change the patch. My keyboard player is excellent in this. Never had any volume problem at all with him.

 

 

You do have a point there. Sometimes "on the fly" is better because after all music is dynamic and some patches want to be out front (a punchy brass patch mixed lower than the acoustic guitar just somehow doesn't seem right :>). Having your patches somewhat balanced to begin with though still gives you a good starting point. then mix to taste (shaken not stired :>)

[The Real MC]

I am a keyboardist.

 

I have gigged in clubs since the dawn of MIDI and have mixed from the stage.

 

I use controllers that stored configurations for each MIDI module - volume, program number, FX send, the works.

 

Two tips help a lot: a recording of the performance and an ear for the band not just myself. I'll listen back to the recording and listen for places where I am too soft or too loud - the focus must be on the band as a whole.

 

Sometimes volume isn't the problem, the sound of the patch may not fit the music.

 

It took some iterations to adjust settings and get it right, but I ultimately had a setup that would work from venue to venue.

 

And all without a volume pedal.

 

It takes experimentation to get it to work, but it is worth it in the end.

[SpaceNorman]

I use volume pedals to control the volume of my keyboards. In many cases, my patches are layered with a piano set at a constant volume - layered with a second voice (i.e., organ, strings or brass) that I "swell" over the constant volume piano path with a volume pedal.

 

The only time that patch volumes present any problem at when a patch is initially activated. The volume pedal must be moved before it begins to "control" the volume of the new patch. I have to remember to quickly "floor" the pedal and immediately back it off - then bring it up to the appropriate volume.

[jfunk82]

thanks for the great replies everyone. i just had my gig last night and tried some of this. i set all my patches right around the same volume.

 

still, even though when i switched to a patch it was at an even volume, the song demanded i increase/decrease volume depending on the energy. we have 2 guitar players and if they are really ripping i need to be louder, etc.

 

sometimes i could barely hear myself in the monitors, but i'd be afraid to turn up for fear of blasting the FOH mix. but when the song would get quiet, the monitor volume would be fine.

 

the songs still require significant volume changes within a single patch, regardless of the preset volume. and no matter how it sounds through the monitors i have no idea how it sounds in the room.

 

i listened to the recordings and i came through a bit in the FOH mix, but definitely too quiet all around (still better than being too loud IMO).

 

one solution might be to use an amp, and run my keyboard through a mixer and just change the volume on the amp while sending a steady signal to the house. the only problem there is i can't go louder/quieter in the house mix as the songs demand since i'd only be controlling my amp volume - once again, i'd be relying on a sound guy who knows the song or is mixing me live.

 

sorry for the long post - but if anyone has any other suggestions or observations i'd love to hear them!

[GigMan]

If you are a good keyboard player...you will know how to adjust the volume for each patch with the volume slider (in real time) each time you change the patch. My keyboard player is excellent in this. Never had any volume problem at all with him.

 

stunningbabe is right... - although adjusting the output on each patch would be good, knowing which ones need to be bumped or cut back is just as easy & you should be familiar enough w/your own rig to do it as needed - that's what I do in my rig (give a little boost in volume when needed and cut back when moving back to other patches), which usually consists of a Yamaha S90ES and a Korg Triton Le but for smaller gigs is just a Roland RD300GX.

 

The thing about doing it this way is that you have to have enough headroom - either in your submixer or in the FOH PA, or both - to be able to give that little boost when needed.

 

For years of bar gigs, I could barely hear myself (on keys) and neither could friends in the audience - now I do more weddgings and banquets but since I play quality equipment w/good PA gear, when I do freelance w/bar bands I make no apologies about trying stay just above the volume of the guitars & bass, which are always too freakin' loud...

[mrcpro]

. we have 2 guitar players and if they are really ripping i need to be louder, etc. i listened to the recordings and i came through a bit in the FOH mix, but definitely too quiet all around (still better than being too loud IMO).

 

If you are in a two guitar band you will never be loud enough.

 

 

sorry for the long post - but if anyone has any other suggestions or observations i'd love to hear them!

 

Remove reverb and minimize all effects except Leslie simulations on your organs. This will bring your keys more up front - in your face, and make their sounds more immediate.

 

Limit key velocity sensitivity. This is usually a patch or voice edit. This will keep your levels in a more restricted range and make it easier for the soundman to position you in the mix.

 

EQ your sounds so that none of them are overly bright or heavy. This is for consistency when mixed in a band context.

[gspointer]

My only request as a soundguy would be to get your line check with your loudest patch. I like to set the channel trim pretty hot and a sudden 10+ db change at the board would very likely clip that channel. Annoying if I am at FOH, and really annoying if I am mixing from stage. Ideally for me, your patches would all be the same level and the sound guy would know when to push up the fader. This would keep all the monitor mixes the same. In my band we try to keep all levels the same, and have the sound guy bump the lead parts etc. from song to song.

[rhat]

I agree you want the FX dry. We use a simple PA Two enons for mains and one for a monitor. I want my level in the mains the same as the monitor. I tell the guy running the mixer where I want my fader. Dont touch it. We balance up the band and play. Run sound from the stage. One has to take into account that lots of keyboards make a louder sound if you hit them harder. When doing soundcheck ,, give it your medium velocity when you set things up. that way you dont loose the expression in your playing.

 

I think alot of players expect a sound guy to make them sound good rather than knowing how to make yourself sound good. face it , at most gigs you got chumley on the sound board. You might be better off without a sound guy.

[Shaster]

 

Remove reverb and minimize all effects except Leslie simulations on your organs. This will bring your keys more up front - in your face, and make their sounds more immediate. Limit key velocity sensitivity. This is usually a patch or voice edit. This will keep your levels in a more restricted range and make it easier for the soundman to position you in the mix. EQ your sounds so that none of them are overly bright or heavy. This is for consistency when mixed in a band context.

 

 

+1 on the reverb and EQ. The key velocity change might present a problem if you're using your keys to record, play jazz, or any ohter "normal" volume uses.

 

Try setting your patches with a mixer that has meters. Set a nominal patch to 0db when you PFL. Then set all your patches to that mark.

 

Ears can trick you. For instance, when I'm setting guitar patches, my ears tell me the dirty patch is louder than clean. Checking it with level meters invariably informs me that the clean is actually louder. IMO that's why many guitar players with multiple pedals sound quieter with their lead patch, than with their clean patch.

[gspointer]

My guitar player plays ampless through a pedal. He has set his patch levels up through our PA using a db meter to set his levels. It has worked pretty well. Of course some patches cut through more than others.