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NEED ADVICE! Powered vs Unpowered Stage Monitors


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Hey Guys!

 

Over the past year, my band has certainly matured and I myself, as a college audio engineering student, am looking to upgrade from my Behringer budget PA System (which I've surprisingly been able to sell a good portion of!)

 

Without further to do, I am looking into purchasing new live stage monitors to use during rehearsals and as backups to venue PA systems.

 

Now I've come to notice that many of the venues I've played at over the past year have been switching to using active stage monitors such as the

 

Samson Live 612M

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-SAM-LIVE612M-LIST

 

JBL PRX512M

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-JBL-PRX512M-LIST

 

Now I've always owned passive speakers but the active's seem very appealing as they eliminate extra cables and power amps.

 

However, I do notice more companies manufacture passive speakers such as the

 

JBL JRX112M

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-JBL-JRX112M-PAK-LIST

 

Yamaha SM12V Club

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-YAM-SM12V-LIST

 

JBL MRX512M

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-JBL-MRX512M-LIST

 

 

I'd like to spend about $800 on a pair but I'm will to push that to a little over $1000. My main goal is to really invest in some quality equipment I know will last AND have resale value!

 

Thanks in advance

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Cross off the JRX's (see the thousand and one posts re: the JRX line). For resale reasons... you might have to cross the Samson's off as well - not sure.

 

The clubs could be considered nice entry level.

 

The MRX's would do nicely, and the PRX's would be quite nice. See Fingerpicker's recent thread re: some used MRX's he picked up (not the 12M's though).

 

Usually in the U.S.A., JBL's resale is pretty good AFAIK, although once in a while I guess you can get a super deal if you're on the buying end.

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I am really leaning towards self powered monitors. Those Peavey's are rated at "200watts" but is that noise/program/peak? I couldn't find the manual on Peavey's website.

 

While I still own 2 power amps and could easily go the passive route, might it be smarter to invest a pair of nicer passive speakers?

 

The Peavey SP12M's seem nice, http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-PEV-SP12M-LIST, 500 Watts continuous/1,000 Watts program/2,000 Watts peak

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As a college audio engineering student, you should realize that focusing on the power alone for these speakers is a very amateur way of looking at systems. The powered speakers do eliminate the need for an amp but the require power and signal to each unit. That is actually an extra cord as the passives only need a signal cable.

 

That being said, I believe the powered speakers are the best way to go. I agree with Shaster on the JRXs (I've owned and hated them) but the MRX for passive or the PRX for powered are great sounding speakers and both are good for FOH or monitor duty.

 

One of my degrees is Music Business. Ask your instructors what they think. In my experience, the audio engineering instructors are usually seasoned vets and they will be happy to let you know their opinions (right or wrong).

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If you have crossovers in your system, note that active crossovers are generally much superior to passive crossovers which tend to induce more losses in the audio signal.

 

 

It is true that active crossovers are generally preferred to passive networks nowadays. I do take issue with your phrase that passive crossovers "introduce more losses in the audio signal" as this doesn't really mean anything. SNR? Efficiency? What does losses in the audio signal mean?

 

You also have to consider that the quality of the crossover is directly proportional to the quality of the speaker system in question. For example, Danley Sound Labs makes some of the best speaker systems out there and (to my knowledge) use passive crossovers exclusively. I hope you realize that passive crossovers can be done very well and using an active crossover is not necessarily an upgrade.

 

I understand your overall point, but generalizations are dangerous. There is an individual over as PSW with this quote in their sig: "For every complicated question-there is a simple- easy to understand WRONG answer."

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If you want powered I would take a look at these.




I have been running a set for awhile now and they work very well. Even for bass guitar monitor.


If you shop around they can be had for less to keep you below your $800 a pair budget.


Dookietwo

Those Peaveys have a Peak SPL of 120db. If you believe the marketing guys the PRX512m is 133db. For a loud band the Peaveys wouldn't be loud enough.

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Powered monitors like the PRX and K10/12 have the advantage of being biamped and have good factor set processing on-board. They sound good and work well right out of the box. The drawback is the extra power cable to each position on stage.

 

For me, passive makes more sense because I may have a dozen wedges on 8 mixes and moving things around during set changes is easier w/ passive boxes and I already have all the proceiing, my wedges are biamped and I have access to and understand analysis tools and driver/system data that most folks do not. BUT, I would probably recommend active speakers for the average user because the benefits outweigh the disadvantages.

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The downside of two cables per box is a myth as there are not multiple vendors that sell cables that incorporate both the power and signal into a single cable (here is one example:
).

 

 

Cool. I didn't know these exist. I was actually going to make my own. I still might because I can do it for less then what they are asking. Thanks for the link.

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in my experience (using powered Peavey monitors), the sound was acceptable but in practical use, having to snake power cords all over the place was pretty inconvenient. Plus, of course, they are heavier than a comparable unpowered unit. With the price of power amps these days, I don't see powered monitors being an advantage.

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in my experience (using powered Peavey monitors), the sound was acceptable but in practical use, having to snake power cords all over the place was pretty inconvenient. Plus, of course, they are heavier than a comparable unpowered unit. With the price of power amps these days, I don't see powered monitors being an advantage.

 

 

The advantage is sound quality and processing/biamping built in. Generally reliability is also better.

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I agree with jwlussow here. Active speakers provide you with a host of benefits including bi-amped out of the box, built in limiting and additional system flexibility. The downside of two cables per box is a myth as there are not multiple vendors that sell cables that incorporate both the power and signal into a single cable (here is one example:
).

 

 

Note that these cables might not be allowed on some stages due to UL listing issues and SJ jacketing. I do not recall seeing this product as carrying a UL listing as a finished product nor a UR rating of the wire for stage applcations.

 

Also, note the cost... $150 for a 50' cable is pretty steep. I carry 12 x 50', 8 x 25' and 6 x 6' biamped speaker cables and the cost in powered would be staggering by comparison.

 

Meyer has a similar product, also expensive but I believe they are UL listed for this application.

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THanks for the many responces!

 

Many have made a good point regarding the 2 wire (power and signal) hassle but for my use, mainly rehearsal and as backup monitors, I would rather deal with 2 wires than extra equipment (power amps) and having to take ohm ratings into consideration when using many monitors on 1 signal, daisy chaining is much easier. Also, the speakers are already biamped and have the properly rated amps built in.

 

Thus I am going with active monitors and have compiled a list, please critique.

 

Samson Live 612M - $350 new

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-SAM-LIVE612M-LIST

Peavey PV115PM - $400 new

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-PEV-PV115PM-LIST

QSC K12 - $800 new

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-QSC-K12

JBL PRX512M - $800 new

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-JBL-PRX512M-LIST

 

I've used the Samson's many times at this one particular venue and they sould great and are very light yet sturdy. Meanwhile, the QSC K's can also be used as main speakers which would be quite useful for misc stuff now and then.

 

Opinions?

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I am really leaning towards self powered monitors. Those Peavey's are rated at "200watts" but is that noise/program/peak? I couldn't find the manual on Peavey's website.


While I still own 2 power amps and could easily go the passive route, might it be smarter to invest a pair of nicer passive speakers?


The Peavey SP12M's seem nice,
, 500 Watts continuous/1,000 Watts program/2,000 Watts peak

 

 

They are 150 watts rms to the woofer and 50 watts rms to the horn. The box will give 270 watts peak output. The advantage over a passive box is you will of course have to biamp a passive box to get the same preformance. It has the advantage also of ddt compression per bandpass. I have no problems at all with two cords.

I also feel they are over designed. The woofer will handle 250 watts rms /

500 program and its feed by a 150 watt rms amp.

 

 

As far as spl take a sound pressure meter and see how loud 120 dbs is. Do you really need 130 dbs or more for level? Not even considering the hearing damage. More spl you need to double the price point but only you know how much spl you will really need.

 

I did a better write up on them here. Allot more from the manual is posted.

 

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/490853/51/?srch=pv+115pm#msg_490853

 

I like them because they are not that heavy and the power amp,crossover,factory eqing, and limiting is built in. They are Peavey so you know they will hold up.

 

Dookietwo

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They are 150 watts rms to the woofer and 50 watts rms to the horn. The box will give 270 watts peak output. The advantage over a passive box is you will of course have to biamp a passive box to get the same preformance. It has the advantage also of ddt compression per bandpass. I have no problems at all with two cords.

I also feel they are over designed. The woofer will handle 250 watts rms /

500 program and its feed by a 150 watt rms amp.



As far as spl take a sound pressure meter and see how loud 120 dbs is. Do you really need 130 dbs or more for level? Not even considering the hearing damage. More spl you need to double the price point but only you know how much spl you will really need.


I did a better write up on them here. Allot more from the manual is posted.


http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/490853/51/?srch=pv+115pm#msg_490853


I like them because they are not that heavy and the power amp,crossover,factory eqing, and limiting is built in. They are Peavey so you know they will hold up.


Dookietwo

Did you read the part where the OP might want to use the for PA speakers also.:confused: Stand 50 ft away from them and then tell me that they are loud enough. The Peaveys may have a polemount but the fact that the power and mic cable is on the face of the speaker would make them look retarded mounted on a pole. :)

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with just a couple monitors the extra hassle is minimum. like AgedH said, it's when you get multiple mixes and monitors going where it''s sort of a pain..I mean hooking up AC and a mic cord..

 

don't forget used. ..and don't overlook the QSC HPR122i, a really nice cabinet..heavier but very nice sounding.

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THanks for the many responces!


Many have made a good point regarding the 2 wire (power and signal) hassle but for my use, mainly rehearsal and as backup monitors, I would rather deal with 2 wires than extra equipment (power amps) and having to take ohm ratings into consideration when using many monitors on 1 signal, daisy chaining is much easier. Also, the speakers are already biamped and have the properly rated amps built in.


Thus I am going with active monitors and have compiled a list, please critique.


Samson Live 612M - $350 new


Peavey PV115PM - $400 new


QSC K12 - $800 new


JBL PRX512M - $800 new



I've used the Samson's many times at this one particular venue and they sould great and are very light yet sturdy. Meanwhile, the QSC K's can also be used as main speakers which would be quite useful for misc stuff now and then.


Opinions?

 

 

The PRX512m can also be pole mounted. I have 4 of them and really like them. I have heard the K12 and they sound good but I like the PRX better. If weight isn't an issue you might check out the QSC hpr122s. I think they sound a little better than the PRXs.

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Did you read the part where the OP might want to use the for PA speakers also.
:confused:
Stand 50 ft away from them and then tell me that they are loud enough. The Peaveys may have a polemount but the fact that the power and mic cable is on the face of the speaker would make them look retarded mounted on a pole.
:)

 

 

modulusman;

 

As my day job is working with people with leaning and physical disabilities (people with IQs below 70) someone saying "makes them look retarded" makes me wonder....:facepalm: But to each his own.

 

I reread his post and I did see where he mentioned Practice and backup monitors. As well as small system mains. I have put the peaveys on stands before. I went through the power amp cooling fins with the power cord and mic cable. Then to the side and through the handles in back. Then wrapped around the tripod pole. In a dark room you could just make out the black cable against the black carpet if you looked for it. But for the most part it was not an issue. I didn't feel they "looked retarded" It may surprise many but for the most part the folks in the venue do not give a rats butt about how the speakers look as long as they are loud enough and sound good. (EDIT: In your Billy Bobs bar and grill type gigs. Corp. is another story...) The speaker will go 120 dbs at roughly 3 feet. You go down 6dbs in spl every time you double your distance.

120 - 3 feet

114- 6 feet

108 - 12 feet

102 - 24 feet

96dbs - 48 feet You will gain a little inside a room. So around 100dbs should be easy to reach.

 

I mix rock bands "in smaller rooms" at around 100 to 105 dbs at 50/60 feet out C weighted , slow response. Now granted this is a full sub/mid/high system but if a "practice/small" system is needed for mostly vocals,maybe a little guitar,bass,keys etc I think they would "hear" them fine.

 

These monitors seem to be the same amp section and output as these speakers.

 

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PR15D?utm_source=nextag&utm_medium=comparisonshopping

 

There is a gentleman on this group that uses these tops " with subs" to do his band. He liked his system the last time I talked to him.

 

To the OP. I just mentioned these because they do seem to sound good and the spl peavey states seems to be a trueful number. Also shop around. They can be found for less. Even less than the Samsons :poke:

 

EDIT:From manual

Nominal Sensitivity: 97 dB (1W @1M, swept sine input in anechoic environment)

Maximum Sound Pressure Level: 120 dB music peak

The output is rated in an Anechoic chamber. 3-6dbs more output would be expected in a typical room.

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modulusman;


As my day job is working with people with leaning and physical disabilities (people with IQs below 70) someone saying "makes them look retarded" makes me wonder....
:facepalm:
But to each his own.


I reread his post and I did see where he mentioned Practice and backup monitors. As well as small system mains. I have put the peaveys on stands before. I went through the power amp cooling fins with the power cord and mic cable. Then to the side and through the handles in back. Then wrapped around the tripod pole. In a dark room you could just make out the black cable against the black carpet if you looked for it. But for the most part it was not an issue. I didn't feel they "looked retarded" It may surprise many but for the most part the folks in the venue do not give a rats butt about how the speakers look as long as they are loud enough and sound good. The speaker will go 120 dbs at roughly 3 feet. You go down 6dbs in spl every time you double your distance.

120 - 3 feet

114- 6 feet

108 - 12 feet

102 - 24 feet

96dbs - 48 feet You will gain a little inside a room. So around 100dbs should be easy to reach.


I mix rock bands "in smaller rooms" at around 100 to 105 dbs at 50/60 feet out C weighted , slow response. Now granted this is a full sub/mid/high system but if a "practice/small" system is needed for mostly vocals,maybe a little guitar,bass,keys etc I think they would "hear" them fine.


These monitors seem to be the same amp section and output as these speakers.


http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/PR15D?utm_source=nextag&utm_medium=comparisonshopping


There is a gentleman on this group that uses these tops " with subs" to do his band. He liked his system the last time I talked to him.


To the OP. I just mentioned these because they do seem to sound good and the spl peavey states seems to be a trueful number. Also shop around. They can be found for less. Even less than the Samsons :poke:


EDIT:From manual

Nominal Sensitivity: 97 dB (1W @1M, swept sine input in anechoic environment)

Maximum Sound Pressure Level: 120 dB music peak

The output is rated in an Anechoic chamber. 3-6dbs more output would be expected in a typical room.

 

Maybe I should have said makes them look stupid instead.:rolleyes: The fact of the matter is they are still an inferior speaker compared to the QSC and the JBL the OP is considering.

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