Big Change: Our own PA

[Glennstapo]

Hey, any experience, advice, thoughts would be much appreciated on this issue.

 

We're a working cover band (80s rock/pop, 3-piece w/ sequenced keys - read: dancing) and have been outsourcing PA. We're seriously considering having our own system, fueled by our desire to go in-ear for monitoring and one thing lead to another and now we're mulling over the whole enchilada.

 

We primarily play mid-sized pubs that hold around 2-400 people.

 

New setup would be:

 

 

Input on any of that would be much appreciated, but the Mains are our biggest challenge/concern. One of the reasons we haven't done PA ourselves is we didn't want to lug it. But, we're handing over a huge part of our revenue to our pro sound contractors on every gig, so it's worth looking at.

 

So, what configuration would work that would give us the smallest footprint/weight/logistical headache and yet will deliver the performance we need?

 

Can we go with a single self-contained 3-way cab like the Mackie HD1531 or JNL PRX535 or do we really need subs?

 

Our pro sound guys almost always bring subs. So do we do a 2-way (i.e. Mackie SRM450) with a sub on each side?

 

OR, can we, and I hate to use the term, get away with a single sub with two-ways on stands?

 

Of course cost is and issue but it's got to be good quality/performance. Most of all is portability, weight, etc.

 

Is there anything I'm leaving out or getting wrong?

 

Sorry for the long email. I'd love to hear your thoughts, thanks!

 

G.

[Vinny D]

Price $

[Glennstapo]

Thanks for your reply, Vinny.

 

Price as in what we are willing to spend? These other requirements are more important that price right now. Like, should we go with single cabs or two subs or one sub and which subs are best.

 

I'll worry about sorting price out when I have a better handle on what will or won't work. Thanks.

[Shaster]

Would you go house shopping without a price?

 

Needs, plus price, equal meaningful recommendations.

 

If price is no object, I would recommend a system similar to Abzurd's. Studiolive board, RCF tops and subs, in ear monitors. Seems to work very well for him, and it sounds like you're doing somewhat similar bags.

[Glennstapo]

Didn't know it'd be this hard.

 

I listed several components which should give you an idea of our price range. I'll list their prices here for convenience.

 

Mackie and Yamaha boards: $5-600

 

Ears: the Shure's are $400 but that's pricey. I have a friend who has the LiveWires and loves them and they're 2 or 3 hundred. I don't know about the Westones, does anyone have Westones? Can anyone recommend a good in-ear that is less than $400?

 

Mackie columns: $1200/ea.

 

Subs are all over the place.

 

If we can get out less than 4k, that would be good.

 

Does that help?

[Gregidon]

Seriously, you want us to guess how much you're willing to spend based on some gear you listed? Geez...

 

Start here: http://www.audioeast.com/yorkvillesystems.htm system 5.

 

Add a metric ton of cables (XLR and Power).

 

Add whatever IEM systems you want.

 

Grab a snake from here: http://audiopile.net/products/Stagelink_snakes/Snakes.shtml

 

Grab some DI boxes, stands, mics, gaff tape and a someone to run your sound and i'd say you're getting there....

[agedhorse]

 

Didn't know it'd be this hard.

 

 

It's not.

[dcastar]

That's a pretty tight budget. Give me a few minutes to piece something together.

[Kyle Abel]

Are you planning on wired or wireless IEM? The IEM prices you mentioned are for the ear buds only. That would be fine if you basically ran a headphone cable from the mixer to each band member's ear buds. If you want to go wireless, expect to spend $400 and up per mix (each mix requires a separate transmitter).

[Shaster]

 

Didn't know it'd be this hard. I listed several components which should give you an idea of our price range. I'll list their prices here for convenience. Mackie and Yamaha boards: $5-600 Ears: the Shure's are $400 but that's pricey. I have a friend who has the LiveWires and loves them and they're 2 or 3 hundred. I don't know about the Westones, does anyone have Westones? Can anyone recommend a good in-ear that is less than $400? Mackie columns: $1200/ea. Subs are all over the place. If we can get out less than 4k, that would be good. Does that help?

 

 

Of your two boards listed I would NOT get the Mackie. IMO you should up your aspirations and get an Allen & Heath MixWiz 16:2 (version 3). I have one (as do many others) and it works well.

 

No Mackie columns either, try JBL, QSC, RCF, and Yorkville instead.

 

That Audioeast Yorkville #5 system would be very nice.

 

BTW your budget is pretty low for what you want, unless you take your time and buy used (at 50% off or more).

[tsaldana3]

QSC still has the rebates going on till the 31st. SO if you were to buy Tops and subs from them, expect to get back about 500-600 back from rebates. It takes a little while to get them, but you'll be happy when you do. I know I was

[dcastar]

Speakers

For 200 to 400 people you're DEFINITELY going to need a sub/top combination. In fact, going with 3 way tops over subs is going to work out the best if you can fit it into your budget.

 

QSC makes some excellent sounding cabs in their HPR line, and they won't break the bank.

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/QSC-HPR152i-152i-HPR181i-HPR-181i-Speaker-Sub-Combo_W0QQitemZ220533612495QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3358d3dfcf

 

or get the 3-way tops:

http://cgi.ebay.com/QSC-HPR153i-15-3-WAY-POWERED-SPEAKER-HPR-153i-HPR153_W0QQitemZ260492058643QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3ca6896013

 

We've used this exact system at weddings in huge ballrooms and they accommodate 300 people with relative ease. If you notice I'm in the midst of selling my QSC system - upgrading to a larger one, only due to the fact that we played some 500 person shows in huge ballrooms and just needed a bit more power.

 

 

The other option would be to grab a Yorkville system from AudioEast - as mentioned above. Yorkville is a great brand.

 

I'm not much a fan of the JBL PRX's... they sound good, but not quite as nice as the Yorkies or the QSC's.

 

Definitely STAY AWAY from the Mackie HD's... they're awful and easily get blown out of the water by the QSC's, Yorkies, and even the JBL PRX's.

 

Monitors

 

When it comes to monitors, IEMs can sometimes be more trouble than they're worth. You really need to be VERY careful with each others mixes, otherwise you'll run into some hairy problems. We sold ours and went back to a basic powered setup with the 'cheaper' QSC K10 speakers, which workout great!

 

Mixing Board

As for 'budget' boards....

I love my Allen and Heath MixWiz3... but at $1k with the speakers listed above, we might go over your budget.

The Allen & Heath ZED-24 at $600 might be a nice option

or

Mackie VLZ3 1604.... never did like the Onyx crap.

or

I've heard good things about the Soundcraft M12

 

 

Endgame

 

Overall, looking at this setup, you can likely get away with a full new PA with Monitors and Board in the $6k range. Going under that, the components are really going to suffer in quality.

 

As we always say here : Buy once, Cry once.

[Glennstapo]

Thanks for the posts, guys.

 

As I mentioned, I'm mainly concerned about what Mains config you think would be best for our typical sized gig - single columns (like the Mackie I listed), a single sub or twin subs.

 

Sorry if I am not supplying enough info.

 

Has anyone run a single sub for a pub that fits around 300 people - did it work or were there shortcomings? Are there particular subs that seem to excel in this use?

 

How about just two 3-way columns - can you get the bass response that is needed in a bar dance environment or are subs a must?

 

Thanks for the link, Gregidon, that looks helpful.

 

Kyle, On the IEMs, we're going wired. Too many moving parts with wireless. Aviom, etc. is too expensive, so I'm thinking a board with three auxes and running the outputs to a headphone amp may work?

 

So another question is, will that work and are there multiple in-out headphone amps that I should consider?

 

We'd also want the ability to use the board and our in-ears with another system for when we're not using our mains (like a club too big for our system). The Mackie board, for example, has eight direct outs (balanced), so could we have a cable harness that goes from that to the main system's snake as a sort of pass-through that allows us to control our IEM mixes but still gives the sound guy the inputs?

 

Thanks.

[dcastar]

Single powered sub for 300 people... it's do-able, but you're really going to be pushing that sub hard!

[Glennstapo]

Great info, guys.

 

DCA, would love to know more about the IEM warning. That's what precipitated this look at getting our own system. Quite a few of the busy cover bands here go 'silent' on stage - no amps, no monitor cabs. Seems to be a nice benefit reducing the stage noise and having control of our monitor mix, but you seem to know more...

 

TS, thanks for the tip on the QSC rebates. I had QSC power amps for our mains in the 80s and they were great.

 

Shaster, any particular problems with the Mackie boards?

 

Thx.

[Shaster]

If you're running a single sub like the Yorkville LS801P you might be alright for 300, IF you're not too concerned with the "chest thump" vibe. I've used a single LS800P for up to 200 and it was fine but a DJ would have wanted more:)

 

IEMs can be a PITA, just depends. I only work with one singer who uses them, and he spends half his breaks fiddling with it. You better be technically inclined and purchase good ones!

 

Once again, please forget the Mackie board. Mackie used to have a great reputation before Greg Mackie sold the company - now it's rep is not very good. There are ribbon cable problems, production problems, money problems, and if you're looking at the CFX line; there is nothing but problems - sonically anyway. And please forget about the Mackie "columns", you will either regret the decision to purchase them, or worse, your audience will - my opinion of course.

 

+1 to three or four "cheaper" powered monitors. That would be a good start IMO.

[djr]

Glenn , I would always go used when you can . Craig's list is a GREAT place to find deals almost all of my gear is either from CL or Ebay . with the economy like it is some great deals to be had and buying used not much deprecation you'll get most if not all your money back when you sell . Target the items you want and look all over your area

[jwlussow]

Stay far away from the Mackies. I concur about the Mixwiz. It is the best, most reliable board in it's class.

 

As far as FOH, you will probably need two single 18" subs and two tops. Powered is easier to upgrade (just add more cabs) and simpler to set up. 80's music needs some volume and low end. I like 12" tops over subs. I think a good starting point is two single 18" subs and two 12" tops.

 

I personally find IEMs much easier to deal with then wedges. There are some caveats. With in ears everything gets miced. Each person will probably want their own mix. That is not a problem for a three piece band as long as the board has enough sends.

 

The cost you are quoting is for the buds only. You have not considered the cost of the transmitters/receivers. Three mixes will need three transmitter channels for mono or 6 for stereo.

 

$4000 is a little low for FOH and in ears. My system for my three piece classic rock cover band cost us around $15,000. That includes PODxt Pros and wireless mics.

 

We currently use two PRX512s over two MRX518s, a Driverack 260, a Mixwiz , three AT 3000 series wireless mics, three Shure PSM200 in ear transmitters. This system will cover up to 400 but if we consistently did shows that large we would add two more subs.

 

This system is very easy to use and set up. Single full range cabs like you are looking at will not give as good low end as dedicated subs. They also weigh more and do not put the horns at the proper height for best sound. A single sub with a two way on a pole is the way to go...

[Vinny D]

I have to say I am not a fan of powered speakers, especially after this weekend.

I know they make it idiot proof (mostly) for inexperianced users but when one fails on you at a gig your *ucked.....as I was Friday night.

I have one powered cab in my system and I use it as a monitor for the drummer so he can be on his own mix, the internal amplifier crapped out and the drummer was out of luck for the rest of the night.

The cab should be covered under warranty (only a year old, EV SXa250) but it didn't help that I had to spend $1100.00 on Saturday to buy another powered cab to work the show I had booked for the night.

 

My take on the PA venture is to stay away from powered cabs, stick with seperate amps, EQ's and speakers.

Much easier to make it through a night if there is any issues IMO.

 

By the way the new cab I had to purchase was a Yorkville EF500P, great sounding but WAY to heavey for such a small cab, it's as heavey as my Peavey QW3f cabs and there 3X the size!

[RoadRanger]

it didn't help that I had to spend $1100.00 on Saturday to buy another powered cab to work the show I had booked for the night.

Don't know anyone local that would loan yah one?

[agedhorse]

There is a rental market... even an unpowered cabinet and amp are available to most folks pretty easily I would imagine.

 

In fact, if you didn't have an amp and an unpowered speaker available, you would have been in exactly the same boat if you had a failure that way too, right???

[jwlussow]

I'm not sure if a blown amp is good if it's internal or external. A blown speaker is a blown speaker. Not sure if your problem is due to being powered. How would a blown passive speaker or external amp be any easier to deal with? Either way, a failure is a failure. Both would suck during a gig.

[Vinny D]

 

Don't know anyone local that would loan yah one?

 

 

 

I could have taken whatever I wanted from my friends store but I don't like doing that, this way now I have a back-up powered cab when my EV gets fixed.

[JohnnyGraphic]

Do yourself a favor. Don't buy something right now. You have time on your side. You already have someone providing sound for your band, so you don't NEED a system.

 

Spend some time on this forum and read, understand and take in all the knowledge that is floating around on this forum. There is a LOT of experience and wisdom here. They all provide it free and most of them have been exactly where you are and know exactly what you are facing. Listen to them and don't go into this purchase blind or stubborn.

 

I would say take a few months to research this purchase. If you're dropping $4k or more (hopefully) for a system from scratch, you need to make sure you're not throwing away your money or going to regret your purchase or having to upgrade your purchase in 6 months.

 

Also, spend some time behind the board. When you have a night off, go out with other sound guys (real ones, not the chick-lead-singers boy friend) and watch and learn. Pick their brain (like you're doing here) and ask questions. You may find out that you don't want to haul all the gear and that having to run sound from the side of stage or finding a competent sound guy to run your gear might be harder than you thought.

 

I know I wish this forum was around when I first bought my first PA setup. I wound up upgrading in a few months. Next band, we had different junk cobbled together from different members and none of it (or very little of it matched). Now, I have a competent system that I love and know how to work thanks to all the guys on this board!!! (Thanks guys!!!).

 

My 2 cents.

 

Johnny

[Vinny D]

 

There is a rental market... even an unpowered cabinet and amp are available to most folks pretty easily I would imagine. In fact, if you didn't have an amp and an unpowered speaker available, you would have been in exactly the same boat if you had a failure that way too, right???

 

 

No time to waste trying to find something, my friend now has a well stocked store of Yorkville PA gear so I just bit the bullet and bought another cab.

 

It's the amp that failed in active cab, I could have easily driven another passive cab (if thats what I was using for the drummer) from my available amps that are always in my amp rack.

 

I agree if it had been the speaker that died it would not have mattered what it was, but when you have been using seperate amp/cabs for 25 years and have never had a failure it's very dissapointing to have an active cab fail in EXACTLY one year from when it was purchased.