Are my speakers just inefficient?

[blitzcw]

I have 2 seismic audio 215 cabs with 2 15'' inch woofers and 2 piezo horns in each. Already pretty bad and non efficient. I added crossover networks at 2000 hz, and unplugged the piezos. I now have pole mounts on the tops of them, and have toa speakers on them. They problably arent very great either. They each have 4 5'' drivers and a piezo horn. They sound much better with all this done to them, and i cannot complain. But i have a peavey 8.5c amp that puts out about 600 watts a channel, and it can be turned up very loud with music without clipping. But when a vocal high note is hit, it goes into clipping at a fairly low volume. Whats happening here?, it should be much louder. Could it just be my cheap speakers?

[agedhorse]

Is it a REAL crossover? Without that, your impedance is going to go below 4 ohms and the amp will VI limit (before it smokes).

 

2kHz is pretty darned high for that configuration. Should be somewhere around 500 or so.

 

Basicly though, you have a pile of inefficient junk that's slapped together in an incorrect (most likely) way. Your results are consistant with your speaker system.

[RoadRanger]

Get yourself an acoustic guitar and play campfire songs while you use them cabs as firewood. "Kumbaya" anyone ?

[blitzcw]

 

Is it a REAL crossover? Without that, your impedance is going to go below 4 ohms and the amp will VI limit (before it smokes). 2kHz is pretty darned high for that configuration. Should be somewhere around 500 or so. Basicly though, you have a pile of inefficient junk that's slapped together in an incorrect (most likely) way. Your results are consistant with your speaker system.

 

 

Yes its a real crossover, but its passive not electronic, like i think you mean. And the total output is 8ohms, says dayton audio. The 215s are both 16ohms, coming down to 8, and the highs are 8. So the crossover keeps them at 8. But im guessing its just exreemely inefficient. So what would you suggest them be? Sell them to another band starting off? Thats what i used them for, but were playing real gigs now and need something good.

[agedhorse]

I mean is there a high pass and low pass network on the crossover>

 

What is/are the slope(s)?

 

Just a gut feeling that there may be someting else going on here. Do you have a link to the crossover?

 

I would sell them off in a heartbeat (even for a few dollars) and look for something with a track record in performance. You might spend some time looking at past posts, but maybe some Yamaha Clud series speakers would be a good place to start. They are available used pretty often. Be sure anything you buy works properly before paying your $$$.

[blitzcw]

 

I mean is there a high pass and low pass network on the crossover> What is/are the slope(s)? Just a gut feeling that there may be someting else going on here. Do you have a link to the crossover? I would sell them off in a heartbeat (even for a few dollars) and look for something with a track record in performance. You might spend some time looking at past posts, but maybe some Yamaha Clud series speakers would be a good place to start. They are available used pretty often. Be sure anything you buy works properly before paying your $$$.

 

 

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-140

 

Those are the networks. Theyre rated at 300watts, but can handle about 500.

 

Ok thanks i will look into some of those, i have a guy locally selling some peavey c-700 networks, big a** guys from the 70s, and some peavey internationals. All for 300. I might grab em because they are both pretty kickass. Theres also some original peavey sp2s and sp3s locally for sale 200 a pair. What would be the better choice these do you think?

[blitzcw]

Heres the high frequency speakers

http://www.toaelectronics.com/service_manuals/discontinued/rs-20_e.pdf

Heres the lows

http://www.seismicaudiospeakers.com/Pair-of-Dual-15-DJ-Speakers-PA-Speakers-Band-p/sa-155.2.htm

 

And i just found something very interesting. The crossovers have a cable that can be put in different spots for different loads, and i have it on the 8ohm spot, because the 2 16ohm speakers in parallel is 8. But i checked on seismics site, and the cabs are 4ohms, and woofers are 8 ohms not 16. So why the **** would u put a 16ohm sticker on it. Im going to switch the cable to 4 ohms in the morning and see if i get a difference. Ahh gotta love buying cheap p.o.s speakers. Thanks for your support agedhorse. Got anymore input?

[modulusman]

If you are going to buy something used maybe get something that isn't 40 years old.

[agedhorse]

 

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=260-140 Those are the networks. Theyre rated at 300watts, but can handle about 500. Ok thanks i will look into some of those, i have a guy locally selling some peavey c-700 networks, big a** guys from the 70s, and some peavey internationals. All for 300. I might grab em because they are both pretty kickass. Theres also some original peavey sp2s and sp3s locally for sale 200 a pair. What would be the better choice these do you think?

 

 

Those crossovers will help with the impedance curve (assuming they are properly marked of course) but what makes you think they will handle 500 watts? Not for very long, that's for certain but I also think that the LP choke would saturate around 200-300 watts and becomes essentially a short circuit and that puts the shunt caps across the power amp output almost (not quite) directly. Power amps don't like this and some will emit all of their magic smoke. Any time you use a choke with a core (bar core in this case), saturation is a definate potential problem. I think this might be a PART of it.

 

Regarding the woofer impedance, I have come across enough unanticipated issues with speaker manufacturers and wrong parts installed that I am suspect anytime I see something even remotely suspicious. Measure the DC resistance of one ofthe woofers with an accurate digital ohm-meter. If they are really 16 ohm woofers you will read a DCR of around 10-12 ohms.

 

If your crossover's LPF is set wrong, you will indeed have a hole 1 octave wide in the response...

 

I wouldn't put any more money into this... put the piezo's back into all of the cabinets, sell of the junkyard, and just buy something used that's a better quality speaker. The results will be far superior than what you could ever hope to achieve for the same money spent.

[blitzcw]

 

Those crossovers will help with the impedance curve (assuming they are properly marked of course) but what makes you think they will handle 500 watts? Not for very long, that's for certain but I also think that the LP choke would saturate around 200-300 watts and becomes essentially a short circuit and that puts the shunt caps across the power amp output almost (not quite) directly. Power amps don't like this and some will emit all of their magic smoke. Any time you use a choke with a core (bar core in this case), saturation is a definate potential problem. I think this might be a PART of it. Regarding the woofer impedance, I have come across enough unanticipated issues with speaker manufacturers and wrong parts installed that I am suspect anytime I see something even remotely suspicious. Measure the DC resistance of one ofthe woofers with an accurate digital ohm-meter. If they are really 16 ohm woofers you will read a DCR of around 10-12 ohms. If your crossover's LPF is set wrong, you will indeed have a hole 1 octave wide in the response... I wouldn't put any more money into this... put the piezo's back into all of the cabinets, sell of the junkyard, and just buy something used that's a better quality speaker. The results will be far superior than what you could ever hope to achieve for the same money spent.

 

 

I will do just that. Have any reccomendations of the peavey speakers i mentioned? The old sp2s and sp3s, and the c-700 networks. They are all pretty old, but have a superior legacy in the speaker world. Thanks

[blitzcw]

 

Those crossovers will help with the impedance curve (assuming they are properly marked of course) but what makes you think they will handle 500 watts? Not for very long, that's for certain but I also think that the LP choke would saturate around 200-300 watts and becomes essentially a short circuit and that puts the shunt caps across the power amp output almost (not quite) directly. Power amps don't like this and some will emit all of their magic smoke. Any time you use a choke with a core (bar core in this case), saturation is a definate potential problem. I think this might be a PART of it. Regarding the woofer impedance, I have come across enough unanticipated issues with speaker manufacturers and wrong parts installed that I am suspect anytime I see something even remotely suspicious. Measure the DC resistance of one ofthe woofers with an accurate digital ohm-meter. If they are really 16 ohm woofers you will read a DCR of around 10-12 ohms. If your crossover's LPF is set wrong, you will indeed have a hole 1 octave wide in the response... I wouldn't put any more money into this... put the piezo's back into all of the cabinets, sell of the junkyard, and just buy something used that's a better quality speaker. The results will be far superior than what you could ever hope to achieve for the same money spent.

 

 

I will do just that. Have any reccomendations of the peavey speakers i mentioned? The old sp2s and sp3s, and the c-700 networks. They are all pretty old, but have a superior legacy in the speaker world. Thanks

[Unalaska]

Old SP2's and SP3's I'd stay away from. If you're on a budget look for late 80's/early 90's and you should be able to get something cheap. Hell, I have some EV's for sale in the seattle area BUT I won't ship. Also stay away from anything needing an external crossover for now. Simple 15+1" box will do and there are a million to choose from.

 

It doesn't have to be this hard, get the right stuff first, we're not picking on you, just trying to steer you in the right direction.

 

Are you DJ'ing with the gear?

[agedhorse]

Yes, stay away from old boat anchors. There are way too many better quality used speakers available for not much (if any) more.

[blitzcw]

 

Old SP2's and SP3's I'd stay away from. If you're on a budget look for late 80's/early 90's and you should be able to get something cheap. Hell, I have some EV's for sale in the seattle area BUT I won't ship. Also stay away from anything needing an external crossover for now. Simple 15+1" box will do and there are a million to choose from. It doesn't have to be this hard, get the right stuff first, we're not picking on you, just trying to steer you in the right direction. Are you DJ'ing with the gear?

 

 

Ok i will look, And for dj'ing with it, i am only doing my friends partys, and the speakers i have sound great for playing music, but they sound like crap with vocals. So i am in need of some speakers that i can do that with to

[agedhorse]

Don't buy more junk.

[Unalaska]

Ah ha! dual 15 speakers for DJ. Playing pre-recorded music (DJ!) thru a speaker really doesn't tax the transient qualities of a cab much at all. CD's are compressed within an inch of thier life. Vocals on the other hand (like any live source) need a little squishing to sound like thier mastered counterparts. DJ speakers are horrible at reproducing this too.

 

Dual 15+1" boxes under, say, $1.5k sound really bad. Bad as is too much mid bass (150-500 hz) and beamy as the 15's try to reproduce 2K and even higher. 2 of them too. So, For vocals, get a really good dual 15 (JBL SRX 725) or single 12 over single 18 subs (a system, 2 amps in stereo, 2 way crossover etc). Single 15's can do well but lack the LF any system with a sub can do. But they excel at vocals.