Are we wasting our time with a sub?

[foose4string]

As mentioned in a previous thread about repairing the Yamaha sub, between several members of the band we collectively have enough gear for playing small to medium sized bars. It's all budget stuff, but it works... for now.

 

I have a Yamaha MG206c mixer, Crown XLS602, and a couple of low end Peavey Monitors. I also have a pair of JRX115's, but the singer has a set of Community MVP15's that we've been using with his Peavey XR series mixer/amp so far. This has worked ok for small bars(the drummer is PLENTY loud enough), but with the prospect of mic'ing the drums looming in the near future it is evident that we will need to start using my mixer and power amp. We'll use the MVP's as our mains(we know what most everyone here thinks about the JXR's). The drummer happens to have a set of Yammie Sw118's collecting dust, one of which, needs to be repaired. We also have a couple other power amps at our disposal if need be.

 

After reading through several threads, the popular sentiment seems to be: use a 12" full range on top of an 18 inch sub instead of a 15" full range. Is the added range of the sub woofers going to pay a worthy dividend in the end? After all, it's big bulky gear that most of us would prefer not to deal with. I can't help but think, it's gotta help when it comes time to add more drums to the mix...not to mention the added benefit to the bass guitar and bari sax. Are we just going to end up muddying the sound? Or, is it worth getting that sub speaker re-coned and hauling those boxes as venue space allows?

[heyitbebt]

worth it....

[picker13]

In a medium sized venue, or if you have a big audience, you'll need and appreciate the subs, especially if you mic the kick and put the bass in the PA.

[Shaster]

It's worth learning how to set-up and use a sub so that you won't be "muddying" your sound.

[foose4string]

It's worth learning how to set-up and use a sub so that you won't be "muddying" your sound.

 

I'm sure part of that involves using a crossover. It's true, I am learning. I have played through literally tons of PA gear over the years and have a very general idea of how things work, but have virtually no hands on experience with set-up and whatnot. Any suggestions on how I should run it? I have seen several schematics and read through some of the primers, so that's a start.

[Shaster]

I know searching though this particular forum can be a pain, but there's lots of info posted previously on all things subs.

 

I would say a crossover is a must, if you want to do it right. Look for some agedhorse (and others) posts on setting crossover points and so on.

[Craig Vecchione]

Yes, you'll need a crossover before the power amps. dbx has good ones that aren't too expensive. Same with Peavey and Samson among others.

 

With the Yammie, set it to 100Hz and all's well.

[GCDEF]

It's the difference between hearing the band and feeling the band.

[Craig Vecchione]

Has anyone started the WynnD countdown timer??

[RoadRanger]

Has anyone started the WynnD countdown timer??

... 5 ...

[Craig Vecchione]

 

... 5 ...

 

 

 

Shhh......not so loud......

[jwlussow]

Shhh......not so loud......

 

[allexcosta]

...4...

[malcatron]

As someone who only recently added subs to their setup I can concur that it is definitely worthwhile, and I'd go as far as to say essential if micing the kick. The difference is huge and it really adds a whole other dimension to your sound, it adds a physical punch that the audience really seem to latch on to.

 

At a venue we play regularly we're the only band that uses subs there, and the regulars have commented on how much fuller and dare I say it more professional it sounds. We don't play any louder than the other bands but it feels more powerful to the audience.

 

Having said that I think you need to be cautious of getting carried away and overpowering the rest of your sound with thumping sub bass. Keep it controlled and sympathetic to the rest of the mix and it is a really effective tool

[Gizzyboo]

Coming from a bass player, I wouldn't even show up unless there were two subs.

[Gizzyboo]

 

I know searching though this particular forum can be a pain, but there's lots of info posted previously on all things subs. I would say a crossover is a must, if you want to do it right. Look for some agedhorse (and others) posts on setting crossover points and so on.

 

 

I keep hearing about crossovers but i've never dealt with it (at least when i've been doing the PA setup). I have LS720P subs (Yorkville). I assume the crossover is built in and automatically seperates the freq.'s. Am i missing something too?

[Dukey]

GizzyBoo

 

no I don't think you're missing something however the built-in XOver might be set too high . . .As an example - our small PA consists of single 15" subs (2 pcs) and 15" full range tops (2 pcs as well), total 1.3 kW - in the beginning we powered the whole system with 1 amp trusting the subs to effectively separate the signal. Subs' XOver point was set @ 350 Hz (not adjustable) - that means that the 15" speakers in the tops had no warmth at at, after all everything under 350 hZ was sent to the subs. Later on we aquired a 2nd amp and a XOver. XOver is set around 120 hZ (this works best for our PA). This makes our PA sound fuller (warmer), better adjustable to whatever room conditions we might encounter and, last but not least, much more versatile. One thing you have to be careful with when placing your subs though - the traditional set-up (sub underneath top on each side of the stage) might generate a "comb-filtering" effect on the lows. We found that placing the subs next to eachother in the center under the stage generated approx a 3dB higher output without upgrading amps and/or speakers. Ofcourse I realize that that's not an option when you're not on a stage.

 

Greetz

Will

[malcatron]

We place the subs centered, even when playing at floor level, never found it to be a problem, they're only obscuring the singers lower legs and he's not much of a moonwalker anyway

 

350Hz seems very high for a sub crossover, are they designed to partner specific main speakers with a limited freq response?

[abzurd]

I look at it this way - If you're a weekend warrior band playing 1-2 times per month at the corner bar for $300 or less, then the expectation of the venue and the patrons is not that high. You'll VERY often not see subs. Frankly, venues like this don't deserve them. If their business model is to not pay much and you want to profit at all, or at least not lose money every time out, then you can't spend much. If the venue is happy, you get repeated bookings, and don't aspire to do more, then there is no practical reason to invest large sums of money into the PA, or anything else related to the band really.

 

If you're regularly gigging, trying to get some kind of regular following and aspiring to get out of playing the absolute lowest paying bar gigs and into places that are paying, say $500+, then subs are pretty much standard.

[Craig Vecchione]

That's certainly one way to approach the bottom-feeder gig, especially if you don't aspire to more...some guys are perfectly happy playing a few nights a month (or a year) at the local dive and simply don't need anything more. If the subs are too heavy or too big to use, leave 'em home.

 

If you want to grow a following, consider that subs might get asses shakin' on the dance floor, which brings guys into the place, and guys drink more when they wanna get 'em some, which makes bar owners happy. You might get a few folks to show up all the time, and they might follow you to a bigger, better paying venue.

 

Or so I'm told.

[GCDEF]

 

I keep hearing about crossovers but i've never dealt with it (at least when i've been doing the PA setup). I have LS720P subs (Yorkville). I assume the crossover is built in and automatically seperates the freq.'s. Am i missing something too?

 

 

The crossover in the subs will keep the highs out of the subs but not the lows out of the tops. A crossover would help your tops run cleaner and clear up mud where the tops and subs are reproducing the same frequencies.

[malcatron]

Another perspective is do the guys in the band CARE what they sound like?

 

I play in what you'd describe as a "bottom feeder" bar band and we all do so because we love making music. We have invested a chunk of cash in our PA because we all want the band to sound as good as possible, it's no different to me wanting my guitar and amp to be able to produce the best tone I can achieve.