Members One_Dude Posted January 16, 2010 Members Share Posted January 16, 2010 I know that pay rates have been discussed from time-to-time here, but my question may be a little different. I have been asked to provide sound for a three piece acoustic group that I have worked for on several previous jobs. They will perform for about 1 1/2 hours and I will be paid an amount equal to each of the players. This group is providing the entertainment for a "fund-raiser" the evening before an all-day festival at the same location. The acoustic group has recommended me to the festival organizer as a possible sound provider. Apparently their sound last year was pretty bad and they would like an improvement. Here's my dilemma; I have not yet talked to the festival organizer, but it has already been stated that there is not much money available. So far it is my understanding that they want sound from about 10:00Am to 6:00Pm. During this time there will be several acoustic groups performing one after the other. At this point I am assuming that none of the performing groups will be bringing their own sound equipment and will expect me to provide the gear and to do the engineering during their set. Right now I am a one-man operation and the jobs I have done tend to be small and something I can handle on my own. I have done a couple of larger jobs where I hired my son (Master's Degree in audio and video production) to assist. These jobs went well, but quite honestly we should have earned more money than we did based on the equipment I provided, the hours we spent, and the overall end product we delivered. I suspect this festival job may be too large for me alone, but in order to hire a helper I need to be able to pay them adequately and still make money myself. When I hire my son we usually split the fee, but he lives three hours away and may not be able to make it for this job. So here are my questions; how do you decide how much to charge for such a job, and if I hire a helper other than my son, how much do I pay them. I could set a price high enough to be sure not to get the job, and therefore not have to worry about the logistics. However, providing sound for this festival could lead to sound jobs for some of the groups that will perform. By the same token, I don't want to work my butt off for peanuts. One method that I can think of is to find the cost to rent a system like mine for the day and use that figure to estimate want I should add on for my labor and skill. Are there other standard methods I can use to come up with a fee that is fair to both me and to the festival? Thanks for your thoughts, JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stevie j Posted January 16, 2010 Members Share Posted January 16, 2010 Charge what you feel you're worth, plus what 5-10% replacement cost of the rig plus what the helper is worth. Simple as. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted January 16, 2010 Members Share Posted January 16, 2010 My fee is $250 per day, plus the cost of the rig rental (per day), plus $100 per crew member (per day). My fee changes according to the PIA factor, such as stairs, scheduling, and history with promoter/organizer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted January 16, 2010 Members Share Posted January 16, 2010 You need to charge what you're worth. The bands will expect a big money job from you. If you're making small money it will get irritating real fast. If there's not much money and you still want to do it, insist on a T-shirt that says "volunteer" on it. Then you can point to your shirt whenever someone gets their knickers in a knot:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike M Posted January 16, 2010 Members Share Posted January 16, 2010 What I have done (and suggest that you do):First call some area providers and ask what they would charge for a similar event / conditions.Since you are new to festivals, charge "slightly" under the local rate due to your lack of experience. (Don't gouge the price because you will drop the bottom out of the production market..) Rationale: The festival is going to need production...if it can't get you for "their price", they'll have to bite the bullet and pony-up the cash for a regional provider. Enlist someone who works for a regional provider to collaborate with you on the project and pay him well. When I need to supplement my rig for the one yearly event that needs more gear (town fireworks, 7,000+ in attendance) I rent it from "Bob" who techs for a provider. When I first asked him (5 years ago) what he charged for the gear rental and his services for the evening, he quoted $400.00....I paid him $500.00 (and continue to do so). He has taught me alot about sound production including how to get the most out of my rig without ruining equipment. In closing, you should enlist someone "in the festival providing business" to get your bearings straight. The price that you charge for this festival will be the price that the promoter will expect to pay you for future similar events. Mike M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted January 16, 2010 Members Share Posted January 16, 2010 You can't do a 2 day 10-6 thing alone, right off you're going to need help. If they don't get you they'll get someone else and you need to know what that rate would be. But even in the big city word gets out quick so be careful how you go about finding out. If you do sub-contract big stuff you'll learn a LOT in a good way about how to do these in the future, if you even want to do them too. And having someone there can really save you ass in many ways too. I don't do many festivals but the ones I do have been a lot of work and the hours don't always work out in my favor (I could do a private event here or there for the same $ and less gear/time). It's neat to have gear out and playing for a large audience but the hassle factor is huge too. and when you're outdoors, things like canopies, stage cover, plastic bags, rain cover overall become more important than what eq goes where.good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heath_eld Posted January 17, 2010 Members Share Posted January 17, 2010 "If there's not much money and you still want to do it, insist on a T-shirt that says "volunteer" on it. Then you can point to your shirt whenever someone gets their knickers in a knot" Oh yeah +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members One_Dude Posted January 18, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 18, 2010 I talked to the event planner this evening and I will be attending their meeting tomorrow. In years past they have put the music groups in a building with a small stage while a number of other events take place in the same building. Apparently their attendance has grown and they have decided to move their operation outdoors with sound provided to a localized area. I will know more tomorrow, but the fact that they are moving outdoor may dictate that I will have to pass on the job. My system is relatively small, maximum 1800 watts output from the amp and speakers that can not handle that kind of signal. I suspect that if I would have to rent a larger system and hire at least one helper, they will not be able to afford the necessary fee. And quite honestly, I do not want to volunteer my time and effort if all they can afford is the system rental. JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted January 18, 2010 Members Share Posted January 18, 2010 It's ok to say no to the gig. If you're doing primarily acoustic music you may find you're ok with a mid/high box per side. Double up if you can too and it will help with coveage etc. They know they are in a budget situation so keep it to something 1 person can handle, 2 boxes per side, 2 mixes, 12ch board. If they plan on bringing in a lot of bigger acts then the problems start. Besides, you may have a different system by the time the gig happens, or new speakers, or access to larger ones. I will cross-rent to other people in the area all the time, and it isn't as expensive as you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joel77 Posted January 18, 2010 Members Share Posted January 18, 2010 If you feel you want to try this outdoor gig, don't let your lack of equipment stop you. If you do a good job at this festival, it may very well open up many other opportunities for you. Find out from the event planners what type of numbers they're talking for attendance. Decide how much more equipment you'll need, check out rental fees for that equipment, add $100/day for each person you hire, $2-300/day for yourself, 5 to 10% of cost for your own gear and you have a ballpark figure. As others have said, don't under price yourself. They're going to need to hire someone, it may as well be you! If you find out they have a budget way under what you figure you'll need, then you may try to explain to them that what they are expecting is unrealistic. I've done many festivals over the years, and though they are a lot of work, they can also be a lot of fun. Best of luck! Joel, Studio 52 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madt0wn Posted January 18, 2010 Members Share Posted January 18, 2010 check out rental fees for that equipment, add $100/day for each person you hire, $2-300/day for yourself, 5 to 10% of cost for your own gear and you have a ballpark figure If you're getting $1k-2k for bringing in a $20k PA, plus the other money, I'm moving to where you are!!! It's more like 1-2% where I am, if you're lucky. For festivals like this, I charge my day rate for the gear, mileage, lodging, plus an hourly for me and anyone I have to hire. I include set up time, but not tear down (sort of like paying for the plumber one-way travel). Hopefully they don't lie about timeframes and provide adequate power... Make it worth your time or it will be a VERY painful experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 18, 2010 Members Share Posted January 18, 2010 If you're getting $1k-2k for bringing in a $20k PA, plus the other money, I'm moving to where you are!!! It's more like 1-2% where I am, if you're lucky. No kidding. I try for between 2.5 and 4% but it depends a lot on the situation. There are other costs to consider also... insurance anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted January 18, 2010 Members Share Posted January 18, 2010 No kidding. I try for between 2.5 and 4% but it depends a lot on the situation. There are other costs to consider also... insurance anyone? Insurance - an excellent point to make. To the OP. Judging from what you've described, they don't really know what they are doing - that's fine, no problem. If you feel confident in your abilities, find out what their budget is. Then suggest a system that matches their budget (yours hopefully, even if it's scaled down). Explain to them the limitations of that system, and what you will and won't do for that price point. If they're happy, put it in writing, get a deposit, get proper insurance and have fun. As so many have said - someone is going to do it, might as well be somenone that actually cares. BTW I'm involved with an outdoor fest that runs 2500 to 5000 people depending on the time of day. We have a band that shows up with two speakers on sticks, no subs. That system is also used for announcements - it works (well.... you know). It's not the big time, but it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joel77 Posted January 20, 2010 Members Share Posted January 20, 2010 If you're getting $1k-2k for bringing in a $20k PA, plus the other money, I'm moving to where you are!!! It's more like 1-2% where I am, if you're lucky. Sorry guys! I meant to type 0.5 - 1.0 % of equipment costs. My bad! Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members One_Dude Posted January 22, 2010 Author Members Share Posted January 22, 2010 I met with the event organizers and found out what they want. This is the first year that the event will be held both indoor and outdoor. The main entertainment stage will be outdoor and they have a sound guy they have used in the past for that location. The second stage will be in a sheltered area (like a picnic shelter but partly walled in) and that is what they want me to cover. It's an all-day job, 9:00-6:00. I did plenty of research regarding price and came up with a number. I checked on gear rental costs and also found prices that DJ's in this area are charging for jobs that are fewer hours. The entertainment on this stage will vary between solo acts, speakers, and small acoustic groups; the intent is to have a different act each hour. My gear is sufficient for the job and I will use my son to help. I wrote up a proposal and delivered it yesterday, so we'll see what they say. JR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted January 22, 2010 Members Share Posted January 22, 2010 It looks like you already put in a proposal so this advice may be coming to you late. As to the insurance issue. Back when I was a sound contractor I used to write liability disclaimers (a held harmless clause) into out contract. This can be a bit dicey as a contract is really only as valid as a judge deems it to be (they could find you at fault regardless of the contract clause). The festival promotors should have their own insurance and you would be in effect working under their umberela. After a few years of doing this we ran into a couple of juicy jobs that required we have our own insurance so we bought a bond (I think it was for 1 mil) and paid for it yearly. It made negotiating a lot easier and opened up working for government agencies, schools and a lot of higher end gigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joel77 Posted January 25, 2010 Members Share Posted January 25, 2010 Dude, Sounds like you're on the right track. Best of luck! Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stevieb Posted February 3, 2010 Members Share Posted February 3, 2010 ...Apparently their attendance has grown and they have decided to move their operation outdoors with sound provided to a localized area. I will know more tomorrow, but the fact that they are moving outdoor may dictate that I will have to pass on the job. My system is relatively small, maximum 1800 watts output from the amp and speakers that can not handle that kind of signal. I suspect that if I would have to rent a larger system and hire at least one helper...JR I do an outdoor festival every year with 1500 watts (bass) and 150 watts (treble) bi-amped system. It's a small music and art festival in Pine Lake GA. I NEVER have had a problem with the system being too small. In fact, first two years I did fine with an even smaller rig. YMMV, 'natch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rotebass Posted February 3, 2010 Members Share Posted February 3, 2010 You can't do a 2 day 10-6 thing alone Why not? I've done weekends where I'm in the club from 3-3 friday, saturday and sunday night before. It's tiring, but totally do-able. If your putting in long hours, try to hit the promoter up for food/drink expenses, and don't be afraid to charge what the market is charging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted February 3, 2010 Members Share Posted February 3, 2010 The thing about a festival for me is you're running back and forth to the stage, each act that comes up you're directing traffic, outdoors in the sun (!), if you need 10min cuz the taco you ate was bad then too bad. For solo duo and smaller bands yeah, anything else then good luck. One event I did 2 years in a row was a thursday hang lighting off a mobile stage (SL250!), then friday 9am load, 11am sound, noon -10pm bands. I had 1 person with me and we pulled it off ok. But it was a lot of work, and we were paid for a lot of work. We struck sound that night and lighting the next day when the 18' roof came down. Our system covered about the larger area of 2000 and a captive audience of 1000. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drummer_jay Posted February 3, 2010 Members Share Posted February 3, 2010 I do an outdoor festival every year with 1500 watts (bass) and 150 watts (treble) bi-amped system. It's a small music and art festival in Pine Lake GA. I NEVER have had a problem with the system being too small. In fact, first two years I did fine with an even smaller rig.YMMV, 'natch. Uh... How many people were you covering and what were you using? This sounds like the reason some sound company's get bad reps. Most of the time a Festival doesn't know a damn thing about what is needed to get the proper amount of coverage. Reminds me on Sturgis.. 5 out of 6 nights we were playing through killer PA systems... Then one night, we show up and this guy has a total of about 1200 watts running some horrible "kustom" cabs. NO subs. Craptastic Behringer mixer.... horrible mics, ONE monitor mix etc. This guy was making 500/day for 6 days... We almost didn't play since the eqiupment wasn't even close to what our rider specified. We sucked it up and did it though... Bad night! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted February 3, 2010 Members Share Posted February 3, 2010 I do an outdoor festival every year with 1500 watts (bass) and 150 watts (treble) bi-amped system. It's a small music and art festival in Pine Lake GA. I NEVER have had a problem with the system being too small. In fact, first two years I did fine with an even smaller rig. YMMV, 'natch. Must be what 50 people in the audience. Seriously you are way under-rigged for an outdoor gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 3, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 3, 2010 Always price yourself to make money. Remember to factor all costs....insurance, transport, taxes (it IS income), gear depreciation, and your salary. Get everything in writing...the smaller the organization, the more likely it's poorly run and that "assumptions" will be made that are flat out wrong. Charities especially are to be viewed with a jaundiced eye....the worst horror stories I've read and experienced all too often start out, "I was doing this charity/volunteer/fund-raiser gig....". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 3, 2010 Members Share Posted February 3, 2010 Uh... How many people were you covering and what were you using? This sounds like the reason some sound company's get bad reps. Most of the time a Festival doesn't know a damn thing about what is needed to get the proper amount of coverage. Could be a folk festival, a festival where they are playing in a small area, a courtyard, etc. I have done festival stages where that was all that was needed. I think some assumptions are being made that may not be accurate. Also, there's the other side of the coin... the festival contracts for one thing but then changes their booking to a differenttype of music and doesn't tell the sound company. This happened at a venue where we were providing sound for 5 stages. The poetry and storytelling stage all of a sudden had a rock band show up. Needless to say they were pissed, but not as pissed as my crew was. We ended up getting them on another stage for a 15 minue set. Not a great deal for any of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drummer_jay Posted February 3, 2010 Members Share Posted February 3, 2010 I guess when I hear the world "festival" I assume a decent sized crowd will be there. Even folk music could be a problem with 150 watts dedicated to "highs"? I am making assumptions, perhaps I should wait for more info! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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