Members abzurd Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 Here's a Prosoundweb article on 700 Mhz wireless situation. It's a good read for summarizing "The rules" as well as role out dates for when interference may start occuring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 More of the same. How can you tell if the FCC is going to screw you? Their lips are moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 Is the FCC screwing with you? Or have you been screwing with the FCC? Wireless mic operators have been illegally squatting for the last 20 years. Now the legal owner of the space want's to clear out the squatters. Imagine you were a landlord, would the sheriff be the bad guy? Things change, technologies change. Typewriters still work but nobody uses them because word processors offer so many additional benefits. Nobody still watches VHS tapes when you can watch a DVD. Change is always a little painful at first, but there is a new way and there are additional benefits to switching to them. If someone invented a new technology for speakers that offered 10x the benefits everyone would be in line to buy new speakers. Relax ... I think you'll like the new world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 Nobody's telling you your typewriter or VHS collection are illegal either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 Is the FCC screwing with you? Or have you been screwing with the FCC?Wireless mic operators have been illegally squatting for the last 20 years. Now the legal owner of the space want's to clear out the squatters. Imagine you were a landlord, would the sheriff be the bad guy?Things change, technologies change. Typewriters still work but nobody uses them because word processors offer so many additional benefits. Nobody still watches VHS tapes when you can watch a DVD. Change is always a little painful at first, but there is a new way and there are additional benefits to switching to them. If someone invented a new technology for speakers that offered 10x the benefits everyone would be in line to buy new speakers. Relax ... I think you'll like the new world. The squatting has been legal because the FCC has allowed it. IF it was an issue, they should have enforced their rights 20 years ago, or 30 years ago. Instead, they allowed FCC compliant wireless systems (intentional radiators) to be manufactured, tested to FCC allowed standards, imported and sold in the US for 30 years, and billions of dollars worth of these devices have been sold. The majority of folks complaining are those who invested in tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars worth of these devices, over the last 10-15 years. How many pro systems are still in active use, still with plenty of life left? I've got over $30k worth of Shure UA band products that have nothing wrong with them. I don't think I am ever going to see 10x the value in other benefits by {censored}canning my stuff. What they saw was a NEW cash cow coming down the lane and they jumped ship, screwing those that were operating quite successfully before. It was purely a money thing, the allure of receiving billions of dollars in new money (plus a little politics) made it easy to screw the industry that didn't pay as much. IF money was such a big deal, why didn't they institute a licensing program 30 years ago, charging wireless manufacturers say $5 per wireless system sold? That would have generated probably several billion dollars right there, without all the grief and drama associated with stiffing some of us folks for tens of thousands of dollars. I don't buy the arguments one bit. Read between the lines and it's pretty obvious to me that the big government and big business is operating business as usual with regards to the "little people". Your typewriter example is absurd IMO. The argument is more correctly something like I have a business, I have 20 or 30 computers that all operate under a particular operating system, the manufacturer then pulls a fast one and discontinues the operating system and then tells all the users that they must stop using their computers, maybe disables the computers via remotely killing the O.S., and there will be no operating system replacement as they must all buy new computers with new operating systems. There was nothing wrong with their previous computers, they worked fine for the needs, will continue to work fine for their needs and somebody else is telling them that they must now stop using them. That would go over like a turd in the punch bowl and everybody would be up in arms over this scenario eh? Oh yeah, and who benefits from all of this? The same wireless manufacturers that have been "supporting their users" in this regard all these years in hearings. I would not be the least bit surprised if ALL the manufacturers are quietly jumping up and down, happy as hell. Demand has ben artificially created for a whole new replacement market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 5, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 5, 2010 This is probably the worst economic climate in which to create an artificial demand for products. And the "change" part of this has nothing whatsoever to do with new technology...it's simply forcing the users of a given frequency band to move, knowing full well that almost none of the equipment is capable of being modified to comply. To further a more accurate analogy, this would be like switching from analog to digital TV, but not providing any conversion boxes for the millions of existing analog sets still in use. The only reason THIS change hasn't been pushed back and accomodations made (as with the DTV switch) is the fact that it doesn't have the exposure broadcast tv has. The Fed is pandering to cell providers, plain and simple. How 'bout they provide vouchers giving a large discount to existing wireless users towards the purchase of new, compliant gear? If they could afford to give out literally millions of DTV convertor vouchers, surely they can afford the relatively miniscule number of wireless systems out there. But that's not politically expedient, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 Bingo Craig!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NUSound Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 How many people own and operate wireless microphone compared to how many people own and operate a television? We are a tiny demographic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 I would not be the least bit surprised if ALL the manufacturers are quietly jumping up and down, happy as hell. Demand has ben artificially created for a whole new replacement market. Well, I know sennheiser stopped selling 700MHz wireless systems a few years ago, I'm not sure who else was on the ball early enough to save a few customers getting ripped off. But I agree with andy. A lot of product in perfect working order is being rendered useless (not redundant or obsolete, like VHS tapes and typewriters) for the FCC to make some more money. That's capitalism, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 The FCC has made wireless mics illegal in lots of other bands before. Where is the outrage from all of those Mr. Microphone 49 mHz guys that can no longer hit on chicks in convertables. In the 80's they cleared the 800 mHz band making cell phone service available. Are you surrendering a future with new benefits? They gave you 12 years written notice but everyone went ahead and bought and built on condemned land Your typewriter example is absurd IMO. The argument is more correctly something like I have a business, I have 20 or 30 computers that all operate under a particular operating system, the manufacturer then pulls a fast one and discontinues the operating system and then tells all the users that they must stop using their computers, maybe disables the computers via remotely killing the O.S., and there will be no operating system replacement as they must all buy new computers with new operating systems. You apparently have never actually read license agreement you SIGNED with Bill Gates. You do not own your Windows software and Microsoft has the right to do exactly what you describe for any reason they see fit. No one held a gun to make you sign. There was nothing wrong with their previous computers, they worked fine for the needs, will continue to work fine for their needs and somebody else is telling them that they must now stop using them. There is nothing wrong with riding a horse (as you will probably attest to) but they would be a bitch on the freeway. I signed on to digital wireless as a profession about 3 years ago when I saw the benefits to performance that would be coming. You are gonna like the switch once you embrace the Borg:thu: As to what consumer type devices that will take up the white spaces, I don't know what they are ... but I'll bet they will quickly become more indispensable than cell phones or the internet (but that's a different discussion). Sometimes I feel a bit like Columbus trying to sell the round world to the bunch comfortable with the flat world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 5, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 5, 2010 Don, would digital wireless not work in the old bands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 By old bands I'm assuming you mean 500-600 mHz? The digital technology is one issue ... and the frequency it is broadcast over is another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members karlw Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 And the "change" part of this has nothing whatsoever to do with new technology...it's simply forcing the users of a given frequency band to move, knowing full well that almost none of the equipment is capable of being modified to comply. A lot of the pro level stuff from Sennheiser and Lectrosonics CAN be modified to comply. Usually it means a new chipset or a board swap. A lot less expensive than replacing the whole system. We've already converted thousands of channels of wireless mics from the 700 MHz band down to something below that for our customers, for the cost of the parts and labor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members karlw Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 Well, I know sennheiser stopped selling 700MHz wireless systems a few years ago, I'm not sure who else was on the ball early enough to save a few customers getting ripped off. We made preliminary announcements about this in early '07 then a formal announcement to our dealers at the end of '07. Basically it said that in '08, anything in the 700MHz band was special-order only, and dealers had to sign a slip stating that they knew what was coming. Then at the end of '08 we stopped making it altogether for the US market. Since '09, we have offered to start modifying existing systems so that they would comply with the new rules, for the cost of parts and labor (no profit) or in some cases, trade-in (when the cost of parts and labor exceeds the cost of a new unit). We are allowing any system that was purchased new within the last 5 years to get this special pricing for the conversion. One last thought is that even though we stand to sell new systems during this debacle, we have had to invest in development, tooling, licensing, and inventory to add new frequency ranges to our line to offset the range lost to the FCC auction. So to say that manufacturers are getting all the benefit here is simply not true. It has cost us plenty. Our stake in this may be different than that for other manufacturers because we cater pretty much 100% to pros - high-end touring bands, film & TV production, pro theaters, etc. We've never sold very much stuff in music stores. Therefore we have only high-end equipment and pro customers. Our approach to the frequency changeover is largely driven by this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 Nobody still watches VHS tapes when you can watch a DVD. Change is always a little painful at first, but there is a new way and there are additional benefits to switching to them. Relax ... I think you'll like the new world. Hey wait a minute. You mean my U-matic VTR Is outdated? I like 12" wide X 2" thick cassettes. I can get a whole hour on one cassette! I guess i'll switch to my Beta... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pdiddy Posted February 5, 2010 Members Share Posted February 5, 2010 This could be interesting this summer as best men and bridemaides give their toasts over our old wireless. On the other hand, some serious exchange could be interrupted by "I remember the time Bill and I got really hammered and he told me about this girl he was falling in love with..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 6, 2010 Members Share Posted February 6, 2010 I do not recall 12 years notice. The first public notice was about 3-4 years ago, and I had already made my significant investment before that time. Shure has told me that it is not possible to do anything for me or my customers other than buy new stuff. This is all the U2/3/4 stuff, their top of the line product. When I asked them if any accomodations were going to be made regarding customers who had already invested large sums and they basicly told me that tough sh*t. That was the day I switched entirely to Audio Technica for all installations and in-house use. Later, they decided that tough sh*t was not a good marketing strategy and came back to me with the "rebate" offer but would not sell their systems without the hand-held elements even though I already have a substantial inventory of perfectly good heads. So again, I was being forced into buying product that I did not need. The cost of the heads is ~150 each and I have about a dozen. So let's see, rebate but I have to spend another $1800 for something that I already own so it's back to (not quite of course) base price. The rebate did nothing but sell more mic heads. The take away message from this is that as a marketing strategy, as well as a customer impression tool, this is a very poor way to run a business. In fact, my customers all made the same decision that I did.... when the systems no longer operate satisfactorily they will replace them, and they will not replace them with Shure product (even though the UHF-R is a fine piece) but will go with Audio Technica because Audio Technica in fact was willing to accomodate replacement (on a case by case basis) of other manufacturers products (using their pro level products) with favorable terms all around to help smooth over the sour taste that was left in the mouths of customers by that kind of attitude. Regarding the operating system example, your comment is exactly why I used it. How would you feel, even though technically it was their "right". In fact, if something like this was to happen, I'll bet the couorts would take a long hard look at monopolistic practices and restraint of trade issues again in a different light. The FCC is immune to these issues because they are a govenrnmental agency that is already a monopoly with unique legal protections. Ever try to sue the Feds? Not gonna happen. If hunting or packing with a horse worked fine 10 years ago and works fine now and will work fine 5 years from now, why should I change? Riding a horse on the freeway did not work well 10 years ago, does not work well today and will not work well 5 years from now. It's a non-issue, as I never bought a horse to ride on the freeway!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 6, 2010 Members Share Posted February 6, 2010 If you had been exceeding the speed limit for years ... illegal always ... and never been caught and now get popped is that the cop's fault? It was illegal for you to turn that wireless mic on from day one. It says that in most owner's manuals. It's really a moot point anyway ... Just for fun I looked up the available spectrum in Los Angeles. EVERY TV channel is already in use or has an application in for a TV channel. Granted that leaves about six or eight channels open today ... but they are likely coming. To be fair, there is a order to reserve 2 channels for wireless mics (but it's hit and miss) so without that there will be ZERO open frequencies in Los Angeles. I also did Chicago ... three channels open. That would means between 18 (traditional part 47 devices) and 36 possible wireless channels (if you use units costing $1500 or more) that will need to be shared by the whole city. Want some fun ... here's a iPhone app that queries this new database to let you know what frequencies might be available for white space devices (of which wireless mics are, legal or not). http://thehill.com/blogs/hillicon-valley/technology/79323-iphones-in-search-of-white-spaces. Load it up and let me know how your future looks. If you live or gig in a city the answer is "Not Bright". Let me know what's available where you are ... realizing that you'll need to run it every time you move 10 miles from where you are now. Bottom line ... the sand is running out for analog wireless. Put on your big girl panties and deal with it:thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 6, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 6, 2010 My 2 cents Professional sound companies have known all along about the legalities of wireless products. Purchasing and operating these devices was necessary and simply the cost of doing business. You can't be the only company not offering wireless installs and mobile reinforcement. These companies all knew they were living on borrowed time. Time's up! Yes, from the perspective of those that own a lot of wireless stuff, it Shure stinks (pun intended). Maybe Shure and others didn't lobby hard against it , but how is it directly their fault? They made the products with the proper warning that they weren't legal and companies bought the products. It's kind of like firework sales in my state (OH). Fireworks are widely available, but it's illegal to set them off in the state. Everyone knows that 99.9% will be set off in the state. Buyers take the risk that they won't be hassled. If they get ticketed and all their fireworks confiscated, is it the store's fault for selling them the fireworks? I do have sympathy for "the little guy", however. Unlike large companies, the guy that buys a wireless microphone likely has no clue it's illegal. I know I didn't until I read it hear one day about a half dozen years ago. Yes, there are notices on the boxes and manual, but hey I missed them. I went back after reading here and, yep it says right on the box there may be some legal issues if you use the thing. Had I known about the legality, would I have bought the item anyway? Yep, probably. As they say though, ignorance it no excuse. In the case of production companies, ignorance can't even be used as an excuse. I wouldn't expect you guys to agree much on this issue. Andy has a lot of analog wireless. Don designs digital wireless. My opinion is it sucks as it was mismanaged by the FCC from the start by allowing unfettered sale of wireless items. You have to have all kinds of FCC approvals for electronics (unless your Behringer ) . How is it they gave a free pass to all the wireless gear over the years even though it was illegal? Is it simply the "fireworks law". It's not illegal to own in the USA, just illegal to operate within its borders? Actually, thinking about it, it makes sense the FCC set it up this way. Hard to file a class action lawsuit against the FCC for taking a way bandwidth when it technically wasn't there in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 6, 2010 Members Share Posted February 6, 2010 Since wireless mics are certified in the United States as complying with the FCC's rules regarding intentional radiators, which they set limits on allowable frequency, power and field strength, and the manufacturers must register the products with the FCC, that seems to be an implicit understanding and approval of the devices as they must carry this approval before thay may be sold in the U.S. They may also be used unlicensed (subject to falling within the parameters of frequency, field strength and radiated power) but the user must accept any interference received as well as prevent interference generated from affecting other users. This is not difficult for such low powered devices as witnessed by 25 years of successful operation in the industry. I do not buy this chicken-sh*t argument that we were never allowed to operate wireless mics therefore we have no rights. That's a cop-out, and the 700 MHz band changes were not publicized 12 years ago, not to any area ofthe market that I am familiar with. If there was some obscure reference, and I as a professional user as well as a designer of products that must also comply with FCC rules was not aware of it, that certainly doesn't bode well for anybody else in the user community being made aware of it either. What it comes down to is a unilateral shift of resources from one group who has been successfully using the technology without prosecution or even any notice that we would be prosecuted, to another user group purely for the promise of money. The colateral benefit to the manufacturers of wireless products, especially the new digital wireless products should not be overlooked. It has "forced" new customers to them and they are set to benefit from somebody else's misfortune. It's a potential cash cow, which I personally object to. I would have no problem buying new product on my terms when I found the need, but to be forced to replace product that is entirely functional and has many years left is beyond offensive to me. It's state sanctioned rape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 6, 2010 Members Share Posted February 6, 2010 You sound like one of those grumpy old men that thinks the government has no right to levy income taxes. They've got this argument and that ... but they all end up in jail I guess you've never actually read the code ... here's the first line regarding "general conditions of operation" Even if you had a license, it is no guarantee for continued use. "Persons operating intentional or unintentional radiators shall not be deemed to have any vested or recognizable right to continued use of any given frequency by virtue of prior registration or certification of equipment ..." You have no "right" ... you have a "privilege". And since the new R&O last month you have even more privilege than you've ever had in the past (at least until June 2010. The privilege is looking more and more like trying to drive a horse on the freeway however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 You sound like one of those grumpy old men that thinks the government has no right to levy income taxes. They've got this argument and that ... but they all end up in jail I guess you've never actually read the code ... here's the first line regarding "general conditions of operation" Even if you had a license, it is no guarantee for continued use. "Persons operating intentional or unintentional radiators shall not be deemed to have any vested or recognizable right to continued use of any given frequency by virtue of prior registration or certification of equipment ..." You have no "right" ... you have a "privilege". And since the new R&O last month you have even more privilege than you've ever had in the past (at least until June 2010. The privilege is looking more and more like trying to drive a horse on the freeway however. Not true Don, I never said the govt. didn't have the right to income taxation. I am aware that legally, they write the rules, they enforce the rules, unilaterally. I said that the warnings did not go back 12 years (or if they did, they were poorly distributed), and that I feel that these changes place an undue burden on some users (people here complain about PA's that cost over $2k as being stupid-expensive) as being excessive. How would the average user here feel if they were told their $30k PA may no longer be used? Or their car is no longer allowed on the roads? Now, the very manufacturers are the ones posed to benefit, including the company you work for Don. Of course you see no problem with this, you (not personally of course) stand to benefit from the changes. I am aware that users have no rights, that's a pretty crappy thing to have to absorb and especially in these economic times. That is, of course, if the new directives are even enforceable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 I said that the warnings did not go back 12 years (or if they did, they were poorly distributed) Actually it was the Congress in 1997 in a spending bill that passed the law to switch over to DTV and to give up 138 mHz of "prime bandwidth" for " deficit-cutting and police use". The FCC just implements the plan. The final date was supposed to be six years but it was extended to 10 years and with about 6 months to go an additional 2 year extension was granted. I would say that I miss a fair amount of new laws and rules ... as they don't notify me every time they change one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 Poorly distributed would be the understatement then, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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