Members drummer_jay Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 I'm not ready to get really serious about this, but I am curious how you all do it or "did" it back when you were first starting. I've sold most all of my gear, mainly because I got busy playing again and it was just sitting. The bands I'm in are national acts (tributes) so we don't even deal with sound/lights. (That's what riders are for!) I'm still playing all the time but have moved to a new city. In this city, there's a big market for someone with good gear and the desire to work. Also, although a few people have good gear, they're not well known for operating it very well. I don't want to be on the road in a drumming capacity forever, so I'm starting to look at acquiring gear again. When I first started getting into it, I'd have to save and sell all the time to work my way into better gear... That equaled better gigs. At the time, I lived in an area cornered by one guy. Everyone assumed he was the best since he had the JBL SRX rig and Midas console. They'd end up hiring him for EVERYTHING! I broke in and took some of his market, mainly things I could handle with my gear. I was less expensive but not by much. I just knew he thought he could get what he wanted because he was the only game in town for so long. Fast forward several years and I have no desire to slowly acquire the gear. I'm considering jumping head first into the touring industry through some connections I've made over the years. I'd be able to skip the very low end of gear humper and cord winder and possibly go in as FOH assistant or something similar. If I do that, I expect some frequent times of no tour and me sitting at home. This is where I'd like to have a decent little system capable of handling mainly club gigs. Something costing 25 to 50k. I don't think I'd have a hard time letting the system go out with a qualified tech while I wasn't around. (IF i can find someone I trust!) Currently, I've gotten my name out there in this market through personal effort and word of mouth, the upper end bands have started contacting me. At this point, I can only offer to come run THEIR gear. I've been filling up every night I'm off the road with my band doing sound somewhere. I'm getting really good cash right now to just walk in. So this is why I think theres hope! How do you all go about purchasing gear? Do you have it as a legitimate business? Bank Loans? Cash? Save till you can get it? The one guy who was my main comp in my past basically had a major line of credit from his bank. (thanks to his parents) and he would just get what he wanted... If anything, this might make for some interesting reading!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Square Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 1) if you albe to stay busy as a touring engineer and get local gigs paying good money when you are home, do you really want to own a significant amount of gear? As you probably know, gear is expensive, take up a lot of space, needs to be maintained, and then there is the vehicle expense. 2) If you still want to get a rig, then you could take out a loan (Home equity line of credit if you have a house), or a bussiness or personal loan. Any loan is made easier if you can show the bank you have assets (stocks, bonds, land, house, etc), but you should KNOW you can make the loan payments even if the business goes bust before you extend yourself on a side venture like this. I have always been a "pay-as-you-go" guy, but that is the slow road to gear acquisition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 How do you all go about purchasing gear? Do you have it as a legitimate business? Bank Loans? Cash? Save till you can get it? The one guy who was my main comp in my past basically had a major line of credit from his bank. (thanks to his parents) and he would just get what he wanted... There's a number of ways to finance the capitalization of a company... but most of the methods involve some sort of collateral to assure the repayment of the loan in full regardless of the success of the business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 JUST SAY NO. Gear generally has a terrible ROI. Between buying it, transporting it, insuring it, housing it, and maintaining it, the bills add up. IF you can make money running other peoples gear, stop now while you are ahead. My $20-30K PA has more $$ than that invested in infrastructure to support it. Cases, trailers, truck for the trailer, property taxes, cables, spares for everything, tools, stands, and the hits just keep on coming. Are you sure you want to do this? Anyone that knows enough about the business to jump into touring at an upper level ought to know enough to stay clear of owning gear if they can. A good re-think might be in order here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 Before you make any decisions at all, write up a business plan as if you were going to present it to a bank loan officer (they'll insist on one anyway) and work on it. There's lot's of info on the 'net, in libraries, and bookstores on what is typically expected. If your plan makes sense, show it to your S/O, friends, or any other (!) disinterested party and ask if it sounds feasible. If it passes that test, and you still want to do it, run it past anyone you know who's already a business owner (I'm sure some of the guys here would happily review it for you) to see how they react. Putting the plan on paper and realistically working the numbers will make it more clear whether it's a good idea. And the better your plan, the better the chances you'll get a loan approval. It is *incredibly hard to get business credit now, especially for noobs. And always remember that 90+% of small businesses will fail in the first year, and that most small business owners try two or three times before finding a successful formula. That doesn't mean don't try, but understand how it goes and don't be discouraged if it fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drummer_jay Posted February 9, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 I do own a home.. with a decent amount of equity. However, my fianc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Jeez - wish I had that problem. Got the $$$ but live in a over-saturated market. Anyways if you are getting plenty of work as a walk-in I'd guess you'd make less money if you had your own rig+transport - especially if you have a loan to pay . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Jay, do you know how to make a million dollars in the touring sound reinforcement business? You start with two million dollars. Really, in this market environment, I can't think of a worse investment opportunity frankly. The ROI is terrible, the rates are at all time lows compared with costs of supporting a real system, and the competition is pretty fierce in most markets. If you are really intent on this, look for a company looking to sell, an owner ready to move on. Buy an ongoing firm with clients and momentum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members allexcosta Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Here's how I financed my PA: - Saved 500 bucks and bought a pair of RCF tops- Saved 200 bucks and got an SXA100+- Saved 300 bucks and got a mixer- Saved... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MarkGifford-1 Posted February 9, 2010 Moderators Share Posted February 9, 2010 Currently, I've gotten my name out there in this market through personal effort and word of mouth, the upper end bands have started contacting me. At this point, I can only offer to come run THEIR gear. I've been filling up every night I'm off the road with my band doing sound somewhere. I'm getting really good cash right now to just walk in. I think you just answered your own question. Why go into huge debt and have to deal with maintenance/insurance/etc. when you can just walk in and run sound? Ask yourself this: How much more $ will I put into my pocket, at the end of the night, by owning a rig? Chances are, the answer will be "not enough." It's like the studio business - I can just rent whatever facility I need, and then go home. Let them spend the money... MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 It's worth it for Jay to investigate his market. But his making good money doing what sound like briefcase gigs is probably the best possible position to be in...miniscule overhead, minimal liability, less time to invest. Nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drummer_jay Posted February 9, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Well, my biggest complaint about doing walk in gigs is sometimes, I'm left to ues sub-par gear. If I've been hired to race a car and I show up and see MY car is only capable of 100mph, and everyone else gets to drive cars that will do 150mph... I could possibly end up looking like the ass with no talent! That's how I feel sometimes. Sadly, most people aren't smart enough to look at the equipment and realize it's only capable of so much. I haven't had this happen yet, but at least with my own gear, I know what I'm getting into ahead of time. I know what I can and can't cover! I've been TRYING like crazy to make a deal with a local sound company. Basically letting me rent the gear and still be able to turn a profit for myself. They obviously have trust issues, not knowing me personally. Also, I think they're curious how I got in with some of the bands that they've never been able to. I've got a lot of thinking to do! I'm guessing, to bring in a decent pa AND light show... to a club/bar, I could get about 500-650. If that was every Friday and Saturday, it would be a no brainier! It sure is easy to walk in though! Just takes several aspects out of my hands at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 Most bands in this area get $500-600, and the sound guy gets a couple hundred if he's lucky....usually the band splits the money and uses some crap on a stick system, no sound guy. So check carefully. If you can land consistent corporate/wedding gigs, you'll make better money than digging for bar/club gigs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drummer_jay Posted February 9, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Most bands in this area get $500-600, and the sound guy gets a couple hundred if he's lucky....usually the band splits the money and uses some crap on a stick system, no sound guy. So check carefully. If you can land consistent corporate/wedding gigs, you'll make better money than digging for bar/club gigs. Ekky! This is why my tributes only head out EAST for bike events!!! Pay is so bad there! In the Midwest GOOD cover bands can make a grand a night. In Chicago, if you're one of the 5-8 killer cover bands, you're gonna get a grand to 3500!! Killer market! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 Ekky! This is why my tributes only head out EAST for bike events!!! Pay is so bad there! In the Midwest GOOD cover bands can make a grand a night. In Chicago, if you're one of the 5-8 killer cover bands, you're gonna get a grand to 3500!! Killer market! Here's another way to test the waters...get hooked up with a good rental system. See what gigs you can land, and how well they pay. If it works out and you enjoy humping gear (don't forget transport) make the move to buy a system. If the rental resources are good, you can build the system as you go and rent the remainder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Don't forget to factor the cost of insurance into your equation, most financing companies will require both loss of equipment as well as liability insurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MarkGifford-1 Posted February 9, 2010 Moderators Share Posted February 9, 2010 I'm guessing, to bring in a decent pa AND light show... to a club/bar, I could get about 500-650. If that was every Friday and Saturday, it would be a no brainier! You get that for $350 here, tops. More than enough sound/lights for any venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gordon Sound Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Using your home as equity is probably the cheapest way to go. A buisness line of credit or buisness loan has a much higher rate. Honestly if you look around for deals you should be able to get most of a decent used PA for around 10K to 20K there are lots of deals out there. You need to alk to the bands you are working with and find out what kind of $ they would be willing to pay. You mentioned walk in gigs, those are usually a "it is what is is" situation, when the PA is installed in the club. I think you will find you "club market" isnt what you think it is, nobody is paying $500 a night for clubs, unless they are massive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drummer_jay Posted February 9, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 The 500/night quote I posted is what I've asked and been told. That's for a guy to bring in decent FOH cabs. Typically 2 stacks/side. His subs are rip offs, but sound ok. He has a smaller midas "baby" console. EAW monitors, etc. It's kind of thrown together. He's also brining in all DMX lighting. Cans, 4 moving head fixtures, few scanners, etc. When my tribute plays locally.. (very rare) our booking company is paying 450 for THAT PA and some basic old school par cans. Except we've never had those EAW monitors show up! We always get these thrown together no name boxes that sound god awful! (or so I've been told, my in ears always sound nice!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 9, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted February 9, 2010 Using your home as equity is probably the cheapest way to go. A buisness line of credit or buisness loan has a much higher rate. But using your home puts it at risk. Anyone in business or contemplating a business should consult an attorney regarding tax, liability and whether to form a corporation, limited partnership etc. to limit their personal liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members davidplasti-k Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 In my case I have played keyboards for twenty years and haven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drummer_jay Posted February 9, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 What's the typical terms of a home equity loan? Length? Do you have an option do only use what you need? I'm assuming that's what the "line of credit" home equity is? Depending on the monthly payment, it might be feasible to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 What's the typical terms of a home equity loan? Length? Do you have an option do only use what you need? I'm assuming that's what the "line of credit" home equity is? Depending on the monthly payment, it might be feasible to do this. Jay, I'm going to discourage you from doing this. The business is not predictable nor stable enough to stake your house on the possibility of failure happening due to reasons beyond your control. Just my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drummer_jay Posted February 9, 2010 Author Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 Jay, I'm going to discourage you from doing this. The business is not predictable nor stable enough to stake your house on the possibility of failure happening due to reasons beyond your control. Just my thoughts. I understand that! I'm most likely not going down that road. I'm just curious mainly. I'm looking at it like this. If it's affordable, I could buy a decent "club" pa. This would work for most LOCAL applications, fit in a standard trailer or van and be a good system for any local bands I start or join down the road. In the event I don't pursue the "dream" of jumping into the touring market, then I've got two bases covered for both me being IN a band and me just working with them. I do know of a few rental companies in this area. The problem with them is by the time I pay the rental fee, there's no room left for me to get paid! I do like the idea of buying what I can as I go, renting what I need. I'm just having a hell of a time finding someone to do that. You'd think they rather have their gear OUR being rented (making money) then sitting in the warehouse collecting dust!? Do any of you guys rent equipment? What are you looking for in a potential renter? What kind of pricing is typical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members imnotded Posted February 9, 2010 Members Share Posted February 9, 2010 What's the typical terms of a home equity loan? Length? Do you have an option do only use what you need? I'm assuming that's what the "line of credit" home equity is? Depending on the monthly payment, it might be feasible to do this. Just another note about this. I own a small business (has nothing to do with music), and a home equity line of credit is a good thing to have. But, only for emergencies. Recently I have had to pull from it. But it gets paid back before anything else. The last thing you want is to get yourself tied up in your business. You need them to be separate entities. Having said that. If its something you enjoy doing, it may be worth it to do for a while without earning a profit, and just getting your bills paid. Then take a look in a couple of years if it is something you want to, or see a profit in. You will only be able to go so long without turning a profit before you get discouraged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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