Guitarist is too loud, but you still can

[Christhee68]

I work in a club that has a house band. They have a sequenced

[jwlussow]

Have the guitarist try emulation. Something like a PODxt or better sounds great and will allow everybody to hear on stage. It is difficult to mix a single miced instrument when everything else is direct. It isn't impossible and I suspect the keyboard player isn't really trying very hard.

[mshifflett]

 

I suspect the keyboard player isn't really trying very hard.

 

 

Good point. If the amp is really that loud on stage, then it shouldn't be that difficult to get that through the FOH.

[Christhee68]

It isn't impossible and I suspect the keyboard player isn't really trying very hard.

 

 

That's what I think, too. You can hear the keyboards loud and clear though, even on so-called "guitar songs."

[abzurd]

If he wants to keep his rig "as is" and use his cabinet as a monitor, just add something like a Hughes & Ketner Red Box, which is a DI with built in cabinet emulation.

[SteinbergerHack]

It isn't impossible and I suspect the keyboard player isn't really trying very hard.

 

This.

 

The source - emulator or mic'd amp - has nothing to do with the issue at hand, and forcing the guitar player to buy new stuff won't change it. The issue is that the keyboard player just doesn't like the sound of the guitar being in the mix, so he's not putting enough into it. "It will feed back" is a lame excuse - there are very few situations where a close-mic'd amp can generate feedback from the FOH cabinets without being PAINFULLY loud. [in most of those cases, it's because the guy running sound doesn't know what he's doing.]

 

This is exactly why most bands are better off with a dedicated sound tech running FOH. [Yes, I know that some bands can get away with it, but most are kidding themselves.]

[IsildursBane]

 

It isn't impossible and I suspect the keyboard player isn't really trying very hard.

 

 

That's probably the main problem. I wouldn't be surprised either if the guitar tone sucks and doesn't cut through the mix very well.

 

-Dan.

[Mogwix]

I've heard some pretty lame excuses in my day and those are definitely on the list.

[Mutha Goose]

That's probably the main problem. I wouldn't be surprised either if the guitar tone sucks and doesn't cut through the mix very well. -Dan.

 

:thu::thu:

It's all about the tone and eq. The fact that you can hear him back stage and that the vocalists are complaing that the guitar is too loud as it is, is proof that the guitar is loud enough. But it is getting buried in the mix. Remember, a guitar is basically a mid-freq instrument. There is a lot of sound energy in that area (vocals, toms, etc.). It is very easy to get lost in all of that. I would recommend having the sound guy provide a mid-boost (3-6 db), then sweep the mid until the guitar becomes clear.

[Unalaska]

I've seen this before actually. The guitar play is using waay too much compression in his own patches. When he uses a cleaner patch it clears up too.

[Shaster]

If you can get a vocalist in the mix using a mic, you can get a guitar amp that uses a mic in the mix.

 

Try standing two feet in front of a lead singer, it will be loud but probably bearable for a few seconds. Try putting your ear two feet in front of a guitar cab that's being described as too loud - you wouldn't last a nano second.

 

The keyboard player is either inept or a a liar (or both).

 

As noted if he's using too much compression or his patches are too dirty (thus compressing) then it might lack presence but it can still be in the mix.

 

I would advise the guitar player to switch to keyboards, or hire a good soundtech:)

 

EDIT: thought of one other possibility. The guitar player's patches vary so wildly that the keyboard player has given up and simply mixes for the loudest patch, this scenario would mean that any quieter patches won't be heard.

[Mogwix]

 

EDIT: thought of one other possibility. The guitar player's patches vary so wildly that the keyboard player has given up and simply mixes for the loudest patch, this scenario would mean that any quieter patches won't be heard.

 

OP never mentioned a modeller, or a compressor. From what I gather he's using a plain ol' guitar amp.

[MarkGifford-1]

I've never heard a mic from a guitar amp feedback.

 

MG

[Mogwix]

I've never heard a mic from a guitar amp feedback.

In my high school days, my band was playing at a high school band battle in a gymnasium. PA system being run by some kid. There was this constant low-end feedback going on every time the kid brought up the levels, and none of the "stage crew" could figure it out. I stood back and watched to see if they could figure it out.

 

While me and the band were backstage, one of the MC's came running in and said "you guys all need to shut off your cell phones! they're causing feedback!".

 

A few minutes later while my band is on stage getting our stuff ready, low end feedback is still there, and the "sound guy" comes up to the stage and says "the guitar mics are feeding back! they're too close to the amps!"

 

Finally I pointed out to the "sound guy" that a bass amp was in front of a kick drum and mic. I just moved the amp over a couple feet and the feedback disappeared.

[lifeloverwg]

 

I've never heard a mic from a guitar amp feedback. MG

 

 

Happened to me last weekend. A low mid feedback that made no sense and it took me a couple of minutes to find what should have been the first and obviously simplest reason...... It was cranked in her monitor send. How and why it got that way I still don't know seeing as how they are the only band mixed on that board, I'm the only one to mix on it and I've never put her guitar into her monitor before.

 

Turned that send off and all was good. I can't understand how she hadn't noticed and complain about it in her mix.

 

Winston

[Phil Clark]

Ok, this is probably too obvious a question... but where is the mic for the guitar amp being placed? Is it between the road case and the amp (where it should be) or is it maybe somewhere else where it cannot do a decent job of picking up the amps sounds.

[Unalaska]

It isn't the mic that it squaking, it's the actual guitar reacting to the amp itself. The mic is just amplifying it on the PA side (has no real effect/affect on the loop between guitar and amp). It's easy to do this really, crank th eoverdrive and then compress a lot with a low threshold and a lot of make up gain. Works with vocal mics too.

[Shaster]

 

Ok, this is probably too obvious a question... but where is the mic for the guitar amp being placed? Is it between the road case and the amp (where it should be) or is it maybe somewhere else where it cannot do a decent job of picking up the amps sounds.

 

 

You mean like pointed at the volume control:) Isn't there a web picture of that?

 

As to patches. Many guys that use pedals have a nice clear punchy clean sound and then step on a pedal or three for their crunch and lead sounds. Suddenly there's "no" guitar.

 

That could be a small contributing factor. Anyway, I like the mic facing the floor, instead of the speaker theory.

 

I once had a guy in a rush almost mic my baffle until I told him "there's only one twelve in my cab" - that would have been fun to get guitar gain out of that mic!

[Christhee68]

 

Ok, this is probably too obvious a question... but where is the mic for the guitar amp being placed? Is it between the road case and the amp (where it should be) or is it maybe somewhere else where it cannot do a decent job of picking up the amps sounds.

 

 

From what I can tell, it hangs from its chord right in front of the speaker, so essentially the mic is sandwiched between the cabinet and the road case.

[Shaster]

 

From what I can tell, it hangs from its chord right in front of the speaker, so essentially the mic is sandwiched between the cabinet and the road case.

 

 

Slowly dropping, dropping.... until it's touching the floor! Off axis won't be as loud anyway, unless it's an e609....

 

Maybe Phil's on to something here.

[TrickyBoy]

As a guitarist who played with keys for years, my guess is that this is a two-part problem.

 

1. Guitarist's tone. I find that in very general terms, the more "over-processed" the guitarist's tone, the more it "blends in" with the keys. Especially if he's one of these goofballs that starts scooping out the mids in his guitar sound. An Old-School Fender tube amp eq'd pretty flat generally cuts through really well.

 

2. Keyboardist's volume and playing habits - I've found a lot of keys players like to drive the bass with their left hand and play constantly with their right hand creating this wall of synthesized sound that becomes hard for most anything else to cut through.

[SteinbergerHack]

From what I can tell, it hangs from its chord right in front of the speaker, so essentially the mic is sandwiched between the cabinet and the road case.

 

The only thing I can say about that is:

 

 

 

These guys need a soundman. Even if it's just for one night, they really need to learn how to set up a stage and get a mix developed.

[Phil Clark]

Slowly dropping, dropping.... until it's touching the floor! Off axis won't be as loud anyway, unless it's an e609.... Maybe Phil's on to something here.

 

Just call me captain obvious.

 

I will be here all week.

 

The description of the placement of the mic bring to mind another possible issue. "What is that rattle in the PA? Oh, its the guitar amp mic bouncing on the grill as the guitarist plays... "

[Rick6]

I don't really know the way these things work, so this could be ridiculous.

 

But, the kb guy says he gets feedback when he shouldn't and the singers can't hear themselves ...

 

Does this sound guy have the sliders labeled correctly?

[Phil Clark]

Feedback can be due to all kinds of issues beside incorrectly labeled channels. I have seen some sound guys adjust graphic eqs based on what they think they want the wedges to sound like, regardless of whether or not the frequencies he is boosting will end up causing feedback in those particular wedges. We always start with our monitor EQs basically flat, with a roll off of the extreme highs and lows. Then we tweak from there to eliminate feedback.