Anybody use outboard mic pre's for live sound?

[Telecruiser]

I was just wondering if this is done and for what applications. Voice, instrument micing?

[Coaster]

unusual if the mixer already has pre's. not unsual for lightpipe interface mixers.

 

i think you might find us tech people want pre's that change a mic signal into a signal the mixer can use and not much more.

[Mogwix]

I've had singers hand me one of those behringer mic pres and request I patch that in with their vocal channel... they tell me the tube pre really warms up the sound...

 

I plug it in and sit it there, but the mic isn't running through it.

[agedhorse]

I once used one to sit on because the stool was too low to see over the console.

 

Any reasonable board will have mic preamps that are plenty-good for any live application that the board itself is good for. But, mic pre's are a feel-good profit center for those who don't have confidence in their own ability to just get the job done and focus on the mix. They are also responsible for a lot of ad revenue to the magazines that review their "wonderful" sound and how they really are responsible for making a mix come together. If the ad is well done, there are plenty of guppies that will take the bait.

[Special J]

I have a pair of Avalon 737's in the shop because we get asked to provide them on riders often enough that it justified us buying them. I don't take them out otherwise, though I've used them on a recording.

[J.]

I've never used them, nor have I seen them used by others in the pro audio sphere. Granted I don't have the experience that others do on this forum, but even at my level I don't see the need. It seems like just an extraneous piece of gear and one more thing to complicate one's setup.

 

We did, however, use them when I was in broadcast radio, but that was just to match up the mics with the board the station was using. Of course this is really apples and oranges, since broadcast mixers and pro sound mixers are two different animals.

[agedhorse]

Many broadcast consoles have line ins and are short mic ins, so for some applications either an optional mic pre module must be installed or outboard pres used.

[J.]

I do believe that was the case, as we got new digital boards all around in both production studios and in each broadcast studio (we had an FM and an AM station in the same building). Microphones were Shure SM7s, although we did have an EV RE20 that was my favorite.

 

Before the new boards, our FM studio had an old console with a manufacture date of 1967. Our tech absolutely hated the thing, and was constantly jury-rigging it to keep it limping along. It had these huge potentiometers on the face of the unit, and when you turned it all the way counterclockwise it clicked "off" and then routed the signal to the cue speaker.

 

This picture is about as close as I can find to the one we had when I started, only ours was in way worse condition and had fewer "features."

 

[agedhorse]

There were a lot of hack techs working in the radio field and when they tried to fix the equipment in-house or worse yet modify it, the results became the new weak link. Bailing wire and bubble gum seemed to be standard fixes.

[J.]

We had a good tech (he was contracted to a couple other radio stations as well as a few local TV stations, and was helping them get their HDTV broadcasting equipment up and running at the time), although who knows what modifications had been done to that console before he came on board. I know there was a newscaster at the station who fancied himself a Mr. Fix-it when it came to electronics, and a lot of his "repairs" were well-known around the station. When I asked the tech what was wrong with the board, he just shook his head and smiled.

 

I guess that's the life of radio consoles. They are in use 24/7, all year round, and are often serviced while still in operation. Our tech had trouble sourcing parts for repair when stuff would break, and if he did find a part, it was almost as old as the one that needed to be replaced. He also had issues matching the outputs of our newer CD players and our computer (our FM station was automated) to the console's inputs, so there were little preamp boxes inside the console. They were still outboard gear, but there's so much room inside those things you could probably have a cat live in there. Just like the one in the picture, the faceplate was hinged at the bottom and the entire thing would lift forward.

[philw44]

If i had some speakers good enough to notice the difference then I'd have some outboard pre's.

 

Ps. Special J - Avalon737 - really? I don't like em in the studio. Very very very clean and detailed but totally sterile!

[agedhorse]

Speakers good enough??? How about the source, acoustics, everything else?

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I was just wondering if this is done and for what applications. Voice, instrument micing?

 

 

It is done by those who've drunk the marketing Kool-Aid that tells them they can get better sound by running a mic into an outboard preamp, which is then run into the same preamp in their live mixing console. Those people are easily identified by the excessive use of adjectives like "open", "warm", "British", when describing sound......

[Craig Vecchione]

Speakers good enough??? How about the source, acoustics, everything else?

 

Why would that matter? All you need is a great preamp on the input side of the console, and an aural enhancer on the output. Then any system can sound great!!!!!!!

 

 

 

[agedhorse]

Why would that matter? All you need is a great preamp on the input side of the console, and an aural enhancer on the output. Then any system can sound great!!!!!!!

 

Chart topping even...

[Dogoth]

 

I've had singers hand me one of those behringer mic pres and request I patch that in with their vocal channel... they tell me the tube pre really warms up the sound... I plug it in and sit it there, but the mic isn't running through it.

 

 

I had the same thing happen. I tried to use it but the sound REALLY sucked badly (all mids and harsh - nothing warm about it). I was acting as their FOH engineer at the time so once they were all on stage, I quickly removed it from the chain and everyone was happy.

 

I have patched in various other units I.E. Joe meek, Avalon...... It wasn't any problem but I thought in the end it made very little difference (No where near the difference the B unit made!).

[RoadRanger]

In general if you think you need better pre's for live sound you should really find out what you're doing wrong. Some boards you can get away with flashing the peak lights but some you can't. If it sounds harsh try reducing your channel pre-gains. In the bad old days we had to run them as hot as possible to keep down the noise but these days you can usually run them just tickling the yellows when PFL'd and you might just be surprised how much better those pre's sound .

[Keyrick]

They are a tool, just like anything else. You shouldn't need one for your everyday gigs as your mixer should provide an adequate interface for your mics.

 

If you are making a recording of the performance, AND, you are using microphones that are usually found in a studio, there can be a need to use a outboard mic preamp. For example, I have a Neuman TLM103 that requires a lot of gain before it sounds good. Going into either a Mackie or Yamaha board direct doesn't cut it. But if I put a RNP (which has 66 db of gain available, more than most live board channels) in line, the mic comes alive. If a live sound board had enough gain, the RNP would not be required.

 

So, it is a tool, usually not needed, and certainly not required for most live performance mics.

 

Rick

[soul-x]

 

They are a tool, just like anything else. You shouldn't need one for your everyday gigs as your mixer should provide an adequate interface for your mics. If you are making a recording of the performance, AND, you are using microphones that are usually found in a studio, there can be a need to use a outboard mic preamp. For example, I have a Neuman TLM103 that requires a lot of gain before it sounds good. Going into either a Mackie or Yamaha board direct doesn't cut it. But if I put a RNP (which has 66 db of gain available, more than most live board channels) in line, the mic comes alive. If a live sound board had enough gain, the RNP would not be required. So, it is a tool, usually not needed, and certainly not required for most live performance mics. Rick

 

 

That's a bit surprising to me, because my experience with that mic is that it is really friggin' hot. Definitely much more so than any of the common ones I generally would use for live sound.

[Keyrick]

 

That's a bit surprising to me, because my experience with that mic is that it is really friggin' hot. Definitely much more so than any of the common ones I generally would use for live sound.

 

 

Not mine. Maybe there is something wrong with it. It is definatly not as hot as my KSM44. Are you sure. If others agree, I will have to have it checked out.

 

Rick

[soul-x]

 

Not mine. Maybe there is something wrong with it. It is definatly not as hot as my KSM44. Are you sure. If others agree, I will have to have it checked out. Rick

 

 

Well, see, now I guess there's a distinction to be drawn. I would consider a KSM44 to be a lot hotter than any of the mics I typically pull out for live sound, as well. I would guess they are in the same ballpark,though.

 

I can say I've yet to run into a common mic that I can't drive well into clip at what I consider a reasonable SNR on any modern console. I mean, that is, unless what I am attempting to amplify is a pin dropping or something similar to that.

[Gregidon]

Not mine. Maybe there is something wrong with it. It is definatly not as hot as my KSM44. Are you sure. If others agree, I will have to have it checked out. Rick

 

That sounds like there is a problem with your mic. The Neumann claims the TLM 103 outputs 23 mV/Pa @ 1kHz. Shure claims the KSM44 produces 28 mV/Pa (-31dBV/Pa). These are too similar to need the gain your mic needs. Heck, if you can get enough gain out of an SM58 (1.85mV/Pa or -54.5dBV/Pa), then your 103 must be producing less than that, which puts it solidly in the "in need of repair" category. Sorry

[soul-x]

That sounds like there is a problem with your mic. The Neumann claims the TLM 103 outputs 23 mV/Pa @ 1kHz. Shure claims the KSM44 produces 28 mV/Pa (-31dBV/Pa). These are too similar to need the gain your mic needs. Heck, if you can get enough gain out of an SM58 (1.85mV/Pa or -54.5dBV/Pa), then your 103 must be producing less than that, which puts it solidly in the "in need of repair" category. Sorry

 

That would definitely fall much more in line with what I would expect from my seat-of-the-pants, knob-twiddling experiences with those mics.

[MarkGifford-1]

103's are really hot - if you use one on kick, you can get away w/o a pre...

[Keyrick]

Wow, I guess I will have to have mine checked.

 

Anyway, a pre is still just a tool that can be used in certain circumstances.

 

Rick