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Arrggh! Another crappy mix at a high$$$ concert


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Hi...a refugee from Music Biz and Backstage w/ the Band here. Thought I would come over here and ask why I'm hearing so many bad FOH mixes lately. When I go to a club and hear the kick way out front, I just chalk it up to a rookie sound man who's more impressed with his rig's ability to get a decent kick sound and wants the world to know. Never mind that it's way out of proportion.

But Sat. night I went to hear John Mayer in an ampitheatre. I've heard several other acts there w/ the same system and know the gear to be top-flight. Also, the opening act (Train) sounded great.

So, Mayer comes out and the mix was all kick and snare. You couldn't hear the keyboards at all thanks to the snare competing with lead vox and guitar. The bass was lost amidst the uber-compressed thump of the kick, and that was the way it was from first song to last.

I would like to say this is an isolated incident, but it's a trend.

Why?

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I've often wondered this myself...

 

Basically, I've stopped going to concerts in any venue that could be considered an 'arena' because the poor sound makes it a waste of time.

 

Had free tickets to a Pearl Jam concert recently, and as I expected, it sounded like a boomy mess.

 

I can only imagine how challenging it is to get good sound in those larger venues, but as long as the masses are willing to pay big bucks for crap sound, this trend will continue.

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Hi...a refugee from Music Biz and Backstage w/ the Band here. Thought I would come over here and ask why I'm hearing so many bad FOH mixes lately. When I go to a club and hear the kick way out front, I just chalk it up to a rookie sound man who's more impressed with his rig's ability to get a decent kick sound and wants the world to know. Never mind that it's way out of proportion.

But Sat. night I went to hear John Mayer in an ampitheatre. I've heard several other acts there w/ the same system and know the gear to be top-flight. Also, the opening act (Train) sounded great.

So, Mayer comes out and the mix was all kick and snare. You couldn't hear the keyboards at all thanks to the snare competing with lead vox and guitar. The bass was lost amidst the uber-compressed thump of the kick, and that was the way it was from first song to last.

I would like to say this is an isolated incident, but it's a trend.

Why?

 

 

That's too bad. I would have expected John Mayer to sound good. I don't go to many shows, but most of the ones I do go to sound good.

 

-Dan.

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I've often wondered this myself...


Basically, I've stopped going to concerts in any venue that could be considered an 'arena' because the poor sound makes it a waste of time.


Had free tickets to a Pearl Jam concert recently, and as I expected, it sounded like a boomy mess.


I can only imagine how challenging it is to get good sound in those larger venues, but as long as the masses are willing to pay big bucks for crap sound, this trend will continue.

 

 

Given the design of modern purpose-built musical amphitheaters and today's sound-reinforcement technology, there's no reason for bad sound. Admittedly, a lot of performances are still being given in basketball arenas masquerading as "muilti-purpose facilities" --- and many of them are acoustically hopeless.

I have heard great sound and mixes at this particular location (Walnut Creek in Raleigh) so there's no excuse other than a clueless FOH mixer.

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I went and saw a show at the Warfield in San Francisco a couple years ago and had the same sort of experience. The headliner was the Dropkick Murphys, I dont remember who the opening acts were. I got there just after the first band started playing and I couldnt make out really anything in the mix. I had to strain to hear the lead vocals. It just sounded like mud, really really loud too. I figured it was just because they were the openers and the sound tech didnt care that much or something. The second band was the same thing. Then Dropkick came out and all I could hear was bass guitar and snare drum. And the volume was rediculously loud. Out in the hall I still had to yell into my buddies ear so he could hear me. We ended up leaving after 2 or 3 songs.

 

I had heard them while I was stationed in Germany in a small venue in Munich. It sounded awesome, and thats what I expected at the warfield show. I was pretty bummed after driving 3 hours one way.

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Were you up front or near the back?

 

Our local 1500-capacity place uses an L'Acoustics dV-DOSC and V-DOSC system, and when you're up front, the only thing you hear are the guitar amps on stage. Go to the back and you're getting pounded with kick drum. At the sound booth, it sounds great typically. If they added some center fills and maybe a center cluster of subs, the place would be phenomenal. I have no idea why they haven't ever done this.

 

Random musing... I've wondered why amphitheater-type venues (you know, fixed seating) don't mount speakers into the back of the seats. It seems like a few well-placed subwoofers and a couple small speakers a foot from your head would give everyone in the crowd a perfect mix, would eliminate the need for a giant array at the stage (maybe put some fills up front to give those sitting close to the stage the normal live music "feel"), would eliminate the need for time delay. Hell, stick a volume control in there and you could even adjust to your liking. The lawn would still have to be fed off small arrays in the back, as they are now.

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Were you up front or near the back?


Our local 1500-capacity place uses an L'Acoustics dV-DOSC and V-DOSC system, and when you're up front, the only thing you hear are the guitar amps on stage. Go to the back and you're getting pounded with kick drum. At the sound booth, it sounds great typically. If they added some center fills and maybe a center cluster of subs, the place would be phenomenal. I have no idea why they haven't ever done this.


Random musing... I've wondered why amphitheater-type venues (you know, fixed seating) don't mount speakers into the back of the seats. It seems like a few well-placed subwoofers and a couple small speakers a foot from your head would give everyone in the crowd a perfect mix, would eliminate the need for a giant array at the stage (maybe put some fills up front to give those sitting close to the stage the normal live music "feel"), would eliminate the need for time delay. Hell, stick a volume control in there and you could even adjust to your liking. The lawn would still have to be fed off small arrays in the back, as they are now.

 

 

It's a little more difficult than it seems. There will be a lot of mush from all the other speakers around you that are increasingly distant but still audible, and you'll always wind up with a blue hair sitting next to a headbanger, so volume wars and hilarity will ensue...

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Maybe those bad engineers are FULL SAIL graduates?

 

 

That's what we used to call them (young guys that THOUGHT they new a lot but really couldn't mix to save their lives). In the last couple of years though I have worked with a couple of guys from Full Sail that were pretty good (I guess it just depends on the individual). In the end we stopped ditzing Full Sail but certainly not the bad engineers (they get the full brunt of our sarcasm :>).

 

Some shows the com chatter is much more entertaining that the show it's self(often this is done to help keep us awake).

 

It is a shame that, just like in the corporate world, in this INDUSTRY, sometimes it's not who you know but who you bl**.

 

I've seen shows where there was bad musicianship as well (hmmm that didn't sound anything like the studio version - or even music for that matter :>). The same thing happened. Somebody knew somebody and got the gig. That mentality (not putting a priority on competence) is what causes bad sound more often than not.

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I was at an "A-List" show maybe ten years ago, mixed by one of the top FOH guys in the business, and I couldn't hear a single word the singer sang, all night, and overall the mix was a murky mess.

 

The band is also one of the best live bands in the business, so he wasn't trying to cover up anything. At one point, about 3 songs in, the vox came up and were nice and clear, for about 10 seconds and then vanished again...

 

The opening act, however was clear as a bell - like a big stereo, so it wasn't the system.

 

I know at one point, Springsteen used to walk the entire hall, during his traditional 2-3 hour soundcheck, and make sure that every seat got the best sound possible. Even with late 70's technology, his shows were incredible-sounding.

 

MG

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So, Mayer comes out and the mix was all kick and snare. You couldn't hear the keyboards at all thanks to the snare competing with lead vox and guitar. The bass was lost amidst the uber-compressed thump of the kick, and that was the way it was from first song to last.

I would like to say this is an isolated incident, but it's a trend.

Why?

 

 

My theory is a loss of perspective. Lead kick and snare have become acceptable - nobody gets fired because you can't hear the rhythm guitar or the second keyboard player.

 

Kick, snare, vocals, bass, and solos - that's all you need.

 

Many of these techs have a vast amount of knowledge, skill... so to me it comes down to perspective.

 

For instance, thnik of how silly the reverb snare of the eighties sounds today, but at the time only a few of my friends questioned the insanity. And I must confess that I fell prey to the evil REV5 bombastic 80's snare.

 

But some people like a total mix. Go hearTower of Power sometime. With a band like that it's essential to hear most of the parts.

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Speaking of verbs, is there a unit out there that replicates some if the delays/verbs of xmas past? Something like a PCM41 patch, a rev500 patch or two...

 

 

I wonder...

 

Your post reminded me that I transliterated some numbers. I was looking at my old Roland DEP5 and called the 500 a 5. There was a reverb on the DEP5 that I used to like back in the day.

 

Now I'm wondering if my old SPX II still works.

 

Yea it would be nice if there was the effects equivalent of the Nord keyboard - I haven't been paying attention to effects lately, but there probably is.

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We have an outdoor arena, Fiddler's Green, that now has some corporate name on it, that was a noise problem when the built it. In order to accommodate the city's noise limits, they built a three tiered time delayed system. When they use the full system, the sound is good everywhere. When they don't, it's usually way too much bass and kick. (and overly loud in most of the arena.) Seems the city isn't riding the max volume on the place anymore. Pity, it used to be a great place to see a concert.

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Speaking of verbs, is there a unit out there that replicates some if the delays/verbs of xmas past? Something like a PCM41 patch, a rev500 patch or two...

 

 

Google "Convolution reverb"

 

Not sure if there's a hardware unit, but Plugins are ubiquitous.

 

MG

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This is a common enough phenomenon.

 

I've been to a quite a few high $$$ gigs over the last few years where the sound was completely atrocious. Yet my (non-sound-techie) friends are bouncing around as if it's the best gig they've ever seen or heard.

 

I think there's a thing that happens with your average music fan that once they can see their 'idol' (for want of a better word) performing in front of them, they get carried away with the event and as long as they can recognise the material, the actual audio quality makes no difference to them whatsoever.

 

At my work, I've often seen the same reaction from crowds whether we've spent 4 hrs doing a soundcheck or if the band had only arrived 30 mins before show time and we just line checked each channel and hoped for the best (with me spending the 1st 20 mins of the gig doing the soundcheck).

 

So I dunno what to say - maybe never to underestimate the gullibility of your average show-goer. They often seem to 'hear what they see'

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...


But some people like a total mix. Go hearTower of Power sometime. With a band like that it's essential to hear most of the parts.

 

 

We're providing PA for them next week. Of course I'll be missing it since I'll be on vacation. Ah well, it's much needed.

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But some people like a total mix. Go hearTower of Power sometime. With a band like that it's essential to hear most of the parts.

 

 

I saw them at a NAMM show at the Marriott (not your typical venue), but it all depends on who is on the board. The opener was Tony Bennett, and the cocktails were drowning him out. Then ToP. First tune I'm in front, second tune by the board, third tune, I'm outta here.

 

My first ass raping for bad sound (considering ticket pricing, $60 in 1991 for cheapies) was the Rolling Stones. I've never heard anything so hilariously bad in my life. Badly calibrated delay stacks (every note 4 times), hell I didn't even recognize Satisfaction.

A few years later I saw Pink Floyd in pretty much the same seat. It was religious.

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My first ass raping for bad sound (considering ticket pricing, $60 in 1991 for cheapies) was the Rolling Stones. I've never heard anything so hilariously bad in my life. Badly calibrated delay stacks (every note 4 times), hell I didn't even recognize Satisfaction.

If it's any consolation, I saw The Stones innabout 2000 (No Security Tour as I recall)... $300ea. seats... and I spent like another $1,500 on airplane tickets & hotel rooms for me & my date... sounded just as you described... EV X-Array system as I recall. Thinking I'd just caught a bad bounce... I saw them again inna different arena during the same tour... sounded basically the same.

 

And yes... there were a number of the songs during both shows that I couldn't even hazard a guess to what they were... and I'm a huge Stones fan... could probably sing the words and fake most of the bass lines to 90% of the songs they've ever released.

 

Oh... and I don't recall seeing anyone at any of the mixing consoles actually during the performance. I guess they couldn't afford FOH engineers... or something... I dunno what. :confused:

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by SCAfeets:


Admittedly, a lot of performances are still being given in basketball arenas masquerading as "muilti-purpose facilities" --- and many of them are acoustically hopeless.

 

 

The only way to mix sound in one of those places is to keep the volume down. I saw the Eagles during their "Hell Freezes Over" period tour at Penn State University's "basketball area" and they sounded great. When they first hit the stage, the volume was WAY TOO LOUD. As soon as the second song started it was obvious that whoever was mixing the sound knew the volume was shaking the rafters and cut it in half, or less. My compliments to that guy. A few months later I went to see Jackson Brown at the same arena and it sounded great. Low volume, but we could everything perfectly.

 

A few months later, Aerosmith blew into town and did a show in the same building. Their sound almost blew us out of the building. WAY WAY too loud. My pants legs were shaking from the bass guitar. I was wearing hearing protection and I still had a headache 3 days after that show. God!

 

The following week the local radio station interviewed the man that manages the Penn State facility and I called in and asked him why Aerosmith was so loud. He said that the sound man that comes with the group mixes the sound and they have no control over it. I told him about my most unpleasant experience and he told me I was not the only one. Some of the ushers walked out of the auditorium and stood in the halls so they didn't get their hearing blown out. That was the last "concert" I ever went to in that building.

 

 

Mike T.

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