Stretching Gear to Cover a Larger Venue

[SpaceNorman]

For the past couple of years - one of my projects has landed a gig playing one of the bigger local beer tent gigs around. It's a long running "two tent" affair that regularly draws crowds in excess of 3,000 on Friday night. They book local talent - and expect that the bands provide their own PA. While the venue is large and the crowd is sizeable - there's no expectation on the part of the promoters that PA is going to truly cover a venue/crowd of that size. Most bands end up what would I would consider to be a medium/large bar PA - and cover what they can cover.

 

Last year, we set the bar high in terms of PA when a close friend who works in the sound reinforcement industry was able to let 4 Meyers 650P Concert Series subs and 4 Meyers CQ1 Concert Series tops "fall off the truck" for the night. That setup sounded incredible - and allowed us to come closer than any of the other bands to doing the venue right - and play rock star for the evening.

 

Sadly, that isn't an option this year - and I'm faced with playing this gig with my existing rig - which consists of 2 Yamaha Club SW118V subs and 2 Club S115V tops - each powered by one channel of a QSC RMX2450 amplifier.

 

While last year's Meyers rig was almost overkill - my existing rig is definitey on the light side for this event. I'm therefore giving some thought to augmenting my existing PA.

 

In terms of additional PA - I have at my disposal - 2 passive Yamaha S115V tops and 4 Yorkville (15" and a horn) passive speakers (model # unknown) along with a Yorkville power amp which I'm told "handles the 4 speakers just fine" (output and model # unknown).

 

At this point I'm thinking the simplest approach may be to simply set up my existing rig as I normally do - and set the Yorkvilles (2 per side) right along side of 'em. I'd split the output from the board (an A&H Mizwiz) right after it leaves the board with a simply "Y" cable - sending a full range signal down the normal path through DBX Driverack (which serves as a crossover) and out to my QSC powered Yamaha stack - and the other half of the split - a full range signal to the Yorkville amp and Yorkville speakers.

 

I certainly realize that this isn't anywhere near an optimum approach to the situation. However running my Yamaha gear close to the pins isn't attractive to me - and there simply isn't budget in this gig to rent and do it right.

 

I'd love a little feedback on this half baked approach I'm considering.

 

Thanks!

[6Imzadi]

 

~snip While last year's Meyers rig was almost overkill - my existing rig is definitey on the light side for this event . I'm therefore giving some thought to augmenting my existing PA. ~snip I certainly realize that this isn't anywhere near an optimum approach to the situation. However running my Yamaha gear close to the pins isn't attractive to me - and there simply isn't budget in this gig to rent and do it right . I'd love a little feedback on this half baked approach I'm considering. Thanks!

 

 

Seems that a gig with 3000 people on just friday would be able to rent the required equipment. Makes me wonder how packed it is on saturday.

 

Also, if you're not making enough to rent for yourself, you should get a raise so you can.

[Kevin T]

Space

 

I have done similar events providing Pro Sound PA. I an also a 30yr MUSO (on Keys) so I have realized we performers often obsess on the wrong issues Your main sound should cover the tent your in. Your PA is OK.

 

IMHO The 2nd tent is not expecting "in your face" sound ( may wanna talk etc) . I would take a mono full range feed from your Board and use the extra speakers/amp as medium/low volume fills around the 2nd tent.

It will not be optimum but it will be fine.

[SpaceNorman]

 

Seems that a gig with 3000 people on just friday would be able to rent the required equipment. Makes me wonder how packed it is on saturday. Also, if you're not making enough to rent for yourself, you should get a raise so you can.

 

 

I can appreciate your sentiment - but the fact of the matter is that it's a beer tent and not a concert. The event organizers understand that it's the event that draws the crowd - that's why they use no name local talent (like us) . They recognize that they make money selling beer - not because the no name local talent was playing through a great sound system.

 

It is what it is. BTW pays pretty well in terms of what gigs for no name local talent pays around here - and will likely generate several quality leads for wedding and private party gigs in it's wake. My choices were to take the gig or not take the gig and have another under PA'ed local band (who likely don't realize they're under PA'ed) get paid and snag the leads.

 

Do you have any suggestions on squeezing the most out of the gear I listed?

 

Thanks!

[agedhorse]

limiters on the amps engaged and the 50Hz HPF's engaged on the subs will give you some leeway. What are you using as a crossover?

[SpaceNorman]

 

limiters on the amps engaged and the 50Hz HPF's engaged on the subs will give you some leeway. What are you using as a crossover?

 

 

I'm using a DBX DriveRack PA to perform crossover functionality. If I recall (I haven't touched the crossover point since I initially set it up ... 3+ years ago) - it's set at 110 hz.

 

I'll embarass myself now and say that I'm not sure I understand what you mean about engaing the 50Hz HPF's on the subs.

 

I thought an "HPF" was a high pass filter and that it worked by simply cutting off anything over the cutoff point. I engage the "HPF" filter on the channel strips of my MixWiz on any channel used to connect a microphone to kill "hiss".

 

I'm not sure I understand how that applies to subs however. I would have thought the crossover would essentially perform that function at the crossover point?

 

What am I missing?

[Mogwix]

I'm not too fond of mixing speakers for FOH, so my opinion is just go with what you got. Sounds like you're basically just expected to do what you can, and any patrons that want to hear the band can do so, by walking up to see the band within your coverage area.

 

As andy said; make sure your limiters aren't defeated and set the 50Hz hi-pass. Don't bother trying to cover all 3000 people because you're definitely not going to be doing that. Just set out a coverage area for yourself and stick to that.

[Shaster]

Depends on what the Yorkies are. If they are the elite series like the EX401's, e408/404's, EF508's, E15's then they are pretty decent. I would just use two a side (watch the ohms) and use your Clubs for monitors.

 

But if they are the "Y" series probably not. Some of the old Pulse line was okay, but probably the same level as the Clubs.

 

Can you find out the model numbers of the Yorkie gear - it could make a big difference to your plans.

[Unalaska]

Here's what I'd do. Rent a pair of Yamaha S118V subs and use 2 over 2 per side. Rent a second 2450 or similar too. That's about as much as one could ask for. Oh, and have someone mic you guys out front.

[Scodiddly]

 

Here's what I'd do. Rent a pair of Yamaha S118V subs and use 2 over 2 per side. Rent a second 2450 or similar too. That's about as much as one could ask for. Oh, and have someone mic you guys out front.

 

 

+1 on renting subs. Tents get plenty loud enough most of the time anyway with the way they reflect the higher frequencies. A little extra subbage will help a lot in that situation.

[agedhorse]

 

I'm using a DBX DriveRack PA to perform crossover functionality. If I recall (I haven't touched the crossover point since I initially set it up ... 3+ years ago) - it's set at 110 hz. I'll embarass myself now and say that I'm not sure I understand what you mean about engaing the 50Hz HPF's on the subs. I thought an "HPF" was a high pass filter and that it worked by simply cutting off anything over the cutoff point. I engage the "HPF" filter on the channel strips of my MixWiz on any channel used to connect a microphone to kill "hiss". I'm not sure I understand how that applies to subs however. I would have thought the crossover would essentially perform that function at the crossover point? What am I missing?

 

 

 

I think you have some things mixed up here.

 

The HPF cuts off program BELOW the setpoint, and won't do anything for hiss. You want 50Hz HPF for those boxes if you think you will be driving them

really hard because most likely damage will be mechanical and the HPF will )help) protect you. The 110Hz crossover point is set by the sub band LOW pass filter. Together, the HPF and LPF make up a band pass filter.

[boomerweps]

Weigh the expenses in your area. Either rent another QSC RMX2450 and a couple matching subs, running your S115s over them OR set up the Yorkvilles for tops (powered by the yorkie amp) and run the RMX2450 on the subs only (2 or 4, if rented). I agree with the thought of "just worry about the tent you are playing in, you are background music for the 2nd tent."

 

Further spelling out the HPF - High PASS Filter means the HIGHS pass over the filter's frequency point. A LPF - Low Pass Filter passes sound BELOW the set frequency. Thed OPPOSITE is a HF cut filter or LF cut filter (high or low frequency cut filter) that filter the frequencies above (on the HF) or below (on the LF) frquency setpoint. many mixers have low CUT filters also called rumble filters.

 

Boomerweps

[JohnnyGraphic]

On your QSC amplifier, the back has these miniscule, tiny, dip switches that you can set for each channel. One of the things you can control is the High Pass filter and the frequency.

 

For the sub amplifier, set the HPF to on and the frequency setting at 50 hz (the other option is 30 hz).

 

Hope this helps.

 

Johnny

[SpaceNorman]

 

I think you have some things mixed up here.

 

 

Yep - I did! I was thinking it worked the other way around. I went back and re-read my MixWiz documentation and realize that I was confused on how the HPF button on the channel strips worked. Fortunately, even though my understanding of why I was engaging the HPF was flawed - I've been engaging it properly.

 

I also re-read my amp documentation - and understand how the HPF filter affects the amp as well as how set the DIP switches to control it. I'll be certain to check that next time I pop the rack covers. I don't recall how I set them when I originally configured the amplifiers.

 

Thanks for straightening me out on this one!

[SpaceNorman]

 

The 110Hz crossover point is set by the sub band LOW pass filter.

 

 

Given the cabinets that I'm using ... it 110Hz a reasonable crossover point?

[boomerweps]

Forgot to mention.

 

IF you can, place your subs together, hopefully in the middle in front of the stage. You gain about 6 free dB of SPL by doing so. (Just for comparision, with the same speakers, it takes double the wattage to increase 3dB of SPL.) Yes, you WILL get a more pronounced LF power alley in the middle of the audience area and MAY get a strong LF lobe back on the stage. But try it.

 

Boomerweps

[Bugzie]

Another suggestion that I've been able to put into play, since Andy sold me a delay,Thanks again Andy!...is to delay a second set of speakers for say 50 ft. If you can rent one locally you might be surprised how far you can stretch the equiptment you mentioned.Also lets you keep a level volume going wayyyy farther back. Hope thats an idea that helps. The Question that comes to my mind is which set you should use at the stage.

[agedhorse]

 

Given the cabinets that I'm using ... it 110Hz a reasonable crossover point?

 

 

Yes, with a 50Hz HPF and 110Hz LPF I think you have reasonable power bandwidth in the most efficient area for the speakers you have.

[Craig Vecchione]

Patrick, yuo stated in the OP that the promoter expects you to provide the PA, that you don't get paid a lot, and that the promoter only expects you to cover what you can cover.

 

You had it good last year; not so much this. So bring your standard system, cover what you cover, and have fun. I see no point in trying to do any more with this gig, especially in light of the fact that none of the extra gear is a positive match with your existing rig. Why sweat it?