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Fuzzy Guitar and Live Sound


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Hi everyone. I'm hoping someone around here can help me out with some live sound issues I've been occasionally having.

 

I play guitar in a hard rock band (think Kyuss, Fu Manchu, Black Sabbath) that plays every couple of months around town (Winnipeg). Nothing too serious, but at the same time, we'd like to be the best we can be and sound the best we can. A vast majority of the stuff I'm playing is pretty loud and distorted, as I want it to be. I like my distortion to be thick and creamy sounding with a little bit of bite on top.

 

Right now, my primary guitar is a Ibanez pawnshop special that I've outfitted with a DiMarzio PAF Pro (my primary pickup) and a DiMarzio Super 3 (for when I want to get really gnarly). The guitar is downtuned to C. I'm running this through a Little Big Muff into a Traynor YCS90.

 

I've spent hours nudging knobs fractions of an inch and have coaxed a tone out of this setup that I absolutely love. The cleans are bright, warm and deep. When I kick on the Big Muff, it sounds great. Huge and beefy with that creaminess I mentioned (yes, I describe all guitar related things with food terms). At about half the shows we play, the instruments are unmiked and everything sounds great. I'll usually have other guitarists coming up and asking how I got the sound that's coming out of that amp. It's playing bar shows where everything is run through the PA that I start to have some issues...

 

Nearly everytime we've played a larger show where I'm miked up, the fuzz sounds like garbage. I'm not a live sound expert and judging by the answers I've recieved from the sound guys at the venues we've played regarding why it sounds so bad, neither are they. We're playing pretty small shows and a lot of the time, the soundman isn't all that experienced. That leads me here. I'm not even sure what the problem is, the distortion just sounds tinny, high pitched and annoying. None of the bottom end is there and neither is any of the definition. You can't tell what I'm playing at all through the PA. Personally, my guess is the mics they are using just aren't suitable for the sound coming out of my amp. Then again, like I said, I'm no expert.

 

Soooo... does anyone have any ideas what these soundmen can do or what I can do to make my sound more "PA appropriate"?

 

Thanks in advance.

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If it sounds OK out of the cab and bad at FOH, it might be as simple as mic placement or a bad mic/cable. They should only amplify the cab sound so if you like what you have at the cab the problem is theirs. How do they mic the cab? Please tell me they do not hang the mic on the cab and the side of the mic is against the cab.

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As mentioned, if it really sounds good at the cab, it seems that it is a matter of improper microphone technique.

 

I have actually achieved decent sound hanging a 57 over a fender Super, but the guitarists sound was a classic thin sound.

 

My guess is that the sound man is placing the microphone too near to the center of the speaker. Moving the mic to the middle point between the center of the speaker and the speaker surround.

 

You might also want to try different mics. See what you like on your cab and buy it, so you've always got it handy.

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My question would be.....

 

At what angle is the speaker compared to your head?

What I mean is, do you have the cab pointed at your head so you hear EXACTLY what's coming out of the amp?

 

Or, is the amp on the floor and you are off axis of the beam of the amp?

 

Your answer to this question could possibly make all the difference.

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At about half the shows we play, the instruments are unmiked and everything sounds great. I'll usually have other guitarists coming up and asking how I got the sound that's coming out of that amp. It's playing bar shows where everything is run through the PA that I start to have some issues...


Nearly everytime we've played a larger show where I'm miked up, the fuzz sounds like garbage.
I'm not a live sound expert and judging by the answers I've recieved from the sound guys at the venues we've played regarding why it sounds so bad, neither are they
........


You can't tell what I'm playing at all through the PA.
Personally, my guess is the mics they are using just aren't suitable for the sound coming out of my amp. Then again, like I said, I'm no expert.


Soooo... does anyone have any ideas what these soundmen can do or what I can do to make my sound more "PA appropriate"?


 

 

What do the sound guys actually say regarding your sound?

 

From personal experience, often times a guitar amp that sounds "great" to a guitarist, doesn't always sit well in the mix. Many times the scooped metal sound that's so desirable, won't cut through a mix. Quite often, less distortion and more mid can help.

 

However, it could be the soundtech's issues that are partially to blame.

 

Check mic placement (as stated) check the type of mic. The "standard" basic guitar mic is a real (not counterfeit) Shure SM57. Check the channel strip. If the highs are really boosted, the lows zeroed, and the mids scooped, then that's a problem.

 

BTW what does the rest of the band sound like? Are the vocals, keys, other guitars, bass, drums.... okay? In other words is it just your guitar that's not happening, or are there other PA problems?

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The first thought that came to my mind was the cabinet aiming.

 

Have you tried aiming your cabinet towards you or setting it on a table and crouching to listen to where the mic is? If not my guess is that you are missing all that high end.

 

If you have listened there and like the sound you get from where the mic goes then we have to look at all the other things mentioned.

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Couldn't agree more with the aiming of the cab and the placement of the mic, and the gain setting. I'd suggest that you get a good mic for your warchest. There are a few mics designed for just that purpose, and a 57 may be the old standard but there are much better out there at reasonable prices. Another suggestion is a cab grabber that aims the mic easier. They are rediculous in price and personally I'd get a mic designed for the job. After looking at what amp you're using I would also suggest trying the direct outs on both the high and low voltage setting. See if one gives better results than the other. Personally I've used the Traynor K4 keyboard amp direct outs and get decent results. To mic a K4 requires 2 mics to get the stereo results. And of course a PA rigged in stereo.

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My question would be.....


At what angle is the speaker compared to your head?

What I mean is, do you have the cab pointed at your head so you hear EXACTLY what's coming out of the amp?


Or, is the amp on the floor and you are off axis of the beam of the amp?


Your answer to this question could possibly make all the difference.

 

+1 :thu:

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Thanks for the suggestions everyone. When I was playing around with my settings, I had the amp on approximately a 45 degree angle, pointing towards my face. I've also had someone else play my rig while I stood a fair distance back and both sounded good to me.

 

As I mentioned in my original post, I'm not a sound expert and I'm also fairly new to playing gigs, so things like mic placement never occurred to me. When we have been miked up, they've used mic stands on the floor near the amp. Nothing attached or touching the actual amp. To be honest, I've never really payed attention to how close or where abouts on the speaker cab they've been placing the mics.

 

I have a friend who works in the rental department of a gear shop, perhaps I'll rent a few things and play around a bit.

 

Thanks again for the help

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Talking about guitar tone on the internets is really hard to do, very subjective without much reference. So that said I don't know you're situation. When I see a band that has a similar problem usually the rig sounds great where the guitar player is standing and like mush 15ft out or off axis.

 

The crunch (for me) comes from the tube power section getting overdriven a lot of gain upstream. Smaller amp sections (15w/30w) being pushed harder to me sound better than the 100w solid state with 3 distortion pedals dimed out and the master volume on 2. One quick note that many tube amps use logarithmic pots so most of your volume happens between 0-3 and anything past 5-6 is as loud as 10.

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There may be another issue here. You may have "god tone" coming from your amp ... but how does that tone play to the band as a whole? If everyone expects that their perfect tone can all co-exist at the same time then they will likely be disappointed. This a a choice the mixer usually has to deal with ... especially in hard style musics.

 

So ... can you ever stand back far enough to hear how the band blends tone wise just coming off your backline. Likely someone is going to have to thin their tone in order for everyone to come through with any clarity.

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Some answers here are perhaps looking too much into this?


Do you know if you have played through a 'Good PA' yet? If the speakers are crap your guitar will sound crap.. simples.

 

 

That's why I was wondering if the OP's tone is the only thing suffering. Maybe the whole band sounds like garbage through these PA's but like a typical guitarist (like me) the only thing he's worried about is his tone:)

 

BTW still curious; ediger, what do the sound guys say about your tone, and their inability to get it where you want it? Their answers (valid or not) might shed some light on your problem.

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A good mic and proper mic plaement are the first step. SM57's, e609 or equivalent should do the trick. The next thing is the soundman. An inexperienced soundman may not know how to properly adjust the gain structure on the board which can add to the fuzzyness and crappy tone coming through the FOH. You can control the mic and placement, not much you can do about an inexperienced sound guy.

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That's why I was wondering if the OP's tone is the only thing suffering. Maybe the whole band sounds like garbage through these PA's but like a typical guitarist (like me) the only thing he's worried about is
his
tone:)


BTW still curious; ediger, what
do
the sound guys say about your tone, and their inability to get it where you want it? Their answers (valid or not) might shed some light on your problem.

 

 

This has been the frustrating part about the whole sound issue. When I've asked the sound guys for any tips, the answer I typically get is "I denno, man. Just wasn't sounding good" Thanks for the insight:rolleyes:

 

The overall sound of the band is something we usually get compliments on when we play unmiked. Our bass player and I tend to play the same riffs at times and the two can get really indistinguishable, but that is completely intentional. You can't really tell where the bass ends and the guitar starts when we lock in together, it just sounds really full.

 

One thing that just came to mind is the overall volume of the amp. I can switch it down to 25 watts. Typically, I have it on 90 with the volume at around 12 o'clock. I could try dropping it down to 25 and turning up the volume a smidge.

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Somebody suggested going direct - I'm not usually a fan of that for guitar, but maybe an H&K Redbox might be your answer. Or maybe the amp's direct outs are speaker emulated. But that's only a solution if mic and/or mic placement is the problem.

 

Any chance that for a six pack of beer, the tech would show up twenty minutes early before call time, and you could work on your tone with him? If you got it where yu wanted and then it still didn't work come showtime, you'd know it was more of a sit in the mix, lack of mid.... thing.

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