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Electrified Stage!


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Had a situation the other night that I don't recall ever running across in all my years of gigging:

 

we show up to play a gig in a small restaurant/bar. Old power. I ask them where the different circuits are and I'm told that as far as they know, there's only one. Hookay. There's really no room to set up the lights anyway, and we won't be pushing the amps very hard in this joint, so I just look for the most separated-by-distance outlets I can find and hope for the best.

 

They have a stage setup against one wall that is three 4x8 platforms. After we set up I discover that the metal rim around the edge of the stage is 'hot'. When any touches it, it sends off what feels like a 120V shock. I accidentally rub a metal box across the edge and it sets off sparks. I start look around the stage to see if I can find anything that would be causing this and I can't see any bare wires or anything. Two of the platforms are up against a wall that has a socket...that's about all I can see. We try to pull the stage out a bit and stick a rubbered-bottom rug between the stage and the wall. Not sure if that helps or not. Nobody wants to touch the edge of the stage to find out! There was also some crackling in the monitors through several of the channels that we couldn't detect the source.

 

Showtime is quickly approaching and we really have no other option except to take the stage and hope for the best. So we do. The crackling seems to have stopped and no one is electrocuted! I'm guessing shoving the rug between the stage and the wall worked?

 

Anyone ever come across anything like this before and maybe know the most likely cause?

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Calling the fire marshall probably isn't a bad idea. As far as packing up and walking? In the abstract that's always the best idea, I suppose. During the reality of the gig---not so much. Unfortunately, I was quite ill that night with the stomach flu and wasn't my usual "take charge" self. I was leaving the set up to the other guys as it was all I could do to just show up and play. Otherwise I would have been a bit more aggressive with trying to fix the situation. I did mention it to one of the people who worked there and their only response was "nobody has ever mentioned it before".

 

As far as packing up and walking---well, the venue wasn't the client in this situation. It was a private event where both the venue and band were hired out. We had little contact or pull with the venue directly and pulling out of the gig would have meant possibly severing ties with a very good client, regardless of HOW valid our reason was for cancelling at the last second. I know, I know...we risked serious injury by continuing to perform and likely dodged a bullet or two. But I'm not really looking for criticisms on my decision to play, but just wondering if anyone has encountered this before?

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You should carry a circut tester with you. My guess is that hot and nuetral were reversed BUT I'm no electrician and it could have been something else.

 

OK, so pretend you did test teh circut. The next step you be to gaff the outlet, put a note as to what the problem is and then find a working outlet nearby. Then tell the manager.

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Assuming it was the electrical source that was the problem. Generally reversed n & hot are not going to cause a shock hazard unless there is also a fault to ground and the ground pin or chassis boond to ground are missing. This could be a missing ground on the receptacle, but there still must be a ground fault to cause the leakage current.

 

By chance was there an old 2 wire power cord on a guitar amp?

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You most definitely missed the only proper option - to pack up and walk.
:facepalm:

Definitely. I understand the situation, but when there's a possibility of anybody being in danger, I pack up and walk. No questions.

 

That's just me, though. I don't put myself, my band, or my crew on the line just to save a contact that's going to screw me later on anyways.

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Assuming it was the electrical source that was the problem. Generally reversed n & hot are not going to cause a shock hazard unless there is also a fault to ground and the ground pin or chassis boond to ground are missing. This could be a missing ground on the receptacle, but there still must be a ground fault to cause the leakage current.


By chance was there an old 2 wire power cord on a guitar amp?

 

 

No. The only thing I can think of was that the metal rim of the platforms were pushed against an outlet. But then I would think that if the outlet was touching the metal, there would have been sparking then and there. Why the rim of the platforms were hot, I really have no idea. I've never seen anything like this before. The only 2-prong anything we had was a wall wart that was plugged directly in. Everything else runs to some sort of power strip or 3-prong extension chord.

 

I'll give the local fire marshall a call and leave that at that. Due to the nature of the gig, I doubt it's a venue we'll be performing in again anytime soon anyway.

 

The fact that no band has (apparently) mentioned it before is interesting. We WERE cramming an awful lot of gear in a space that usually accomodates small format trios and 4 pieces. But still---first time I've come across anything like this in 35 years.

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There's no way to tell if the rim of the stage was hot or something that you were touching that was hot and the rim solidly grounded. That's why thorough testing is essential in tracking down the real problem.

 

 

I wasn't touching ANYTHING except to be standing on a wood floor in rubber-soled shoes. Very odd indeed.

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If nothing is on the stage, and you touch the stage and receive a shock then you ask the client to come over and touch the stage. Once they feel the shock you tell them "Get someone to fix the problem, put us somewhere else, or do without live music". Music isn't worth dying for.

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If nothing is on the stage, and you touch the stage and receive a shock then you ask the client to come over and touch the stage. Once they feel the shock you tell them "Get someone to fix the problem, put us somewhere else, or do without live music". Music isn't worth dying for.

 

 

I didn't say nothing was on the stage. We were completely set up and wired. I just wasn't touching anything else besides the stage. Our gear may very well have been part of the problem. Just saying it wasn't a "when I touch this and then ALSO touch that" type of deal.

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If nothing is on the stage, and you touch the stage and receive a shock then you ask the client to come over and touch the stage. Once they feel the shock you tell them "Get someone to fix the problem, put us somewhere else, or do without live music". Music isn't worth dying for.

 

 

And if the client says, can't you play anyway, then you can walk. This is one of the things they tell young workers (at worksafe courses) - you do have a right to refuse requests and activity you deem unsafe.

 

For instance I once refused to play outdoors in an approaching thunderstorm - it changed the nature of the event but ultimately everyone had a good time and nobody died.

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And if the client says, can't you play anyway, then you can walk. This is one of the things they tell young workers (at worksafe courses) - you do have a right to refuse requests and activity you deem unsafe.

 

 

Why do I get the feeling people here look FORWARD to the situations where they "can" walk? Almost like it's a power-trip or something. COULD I have walked and not violated my contract? Probably. But I wasn't looking for a way to get OUT of the gig; I was looking for ways to continue. It seemed safe enough and like we maybe even resolved the situation by showtime, so----The Show Must Go On.

 

Was it the by-the-textbook safest thing to do? Probably not. But I evaluated everything to best of my ability and went forward. I wasn't in the mood to play "I'm The Boss Here And I'm Gonna Ruin Everbody's Night Because I CAN". I've made plenty of stupid decisions and lived to tell about it thus far in my life; I'm sure I'll make plenty more.

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I recently had a small gig (accoustic duo) for a pre-grand opening of a club that had burned to the ground about a year and a half ago. The party was for the contractors and vendors that had helped in getting the place rebuilt. Out of habit i plugged my circuit tester into the outlet at the FOH position and read a fault. I've worked with the owner on quite a few occasions and suggested that he add a second 100 amp service for the stage and FOH. He took my advice. The electrician that did the install was at the event and I pointed it out to him. He grabbed his meter and found the same thing. Just shows you that you never know. Took the electrician all of 15 minutes to correct the situation. He (the electrician) actually came up to me and asked me if I had ruined any equiptment and if so offered to pay for the damages.

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Why do I get the feeling people here look FORWARD to the situations where they "can" walk?

 

 

I understand your sentiment - I usually take the "I'd walk" posts with a grain of salt as well. They sorta get lumped together the "That would NEVER happen to me ... I'd kick their ass!!!!" and get chalked up as the ranting of another internet badass.

 

However, keeping yourself and your gear safe MUST trump the need for the show to go on. If I run into a situation where something is obviously wrong (I mean clearly malfunctioning ... not that something doesn't simply doesn't meet code...) - I'm not going any further until I'm reasonably certain I understand the source and scope of the probem. I've got to be reasonably confident that I'm not putting myself, my band mates and/or our gear at significant risk.

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I believe the "I'd walk" posts are usually done by the people not in the situation. My guess is most would not actually walk if they were confronted with the same issue. It is easy to make judgements when it is a hypothetical situation. Completely different if it is actually happening. Kind of like "I would run into that burning building to save someone" when in reality a sane person would just stand there scared {censored}less.

 

I'd like to think I would bring it to the bar owners attention and walk away if a satisfactory resolution is not made but in reality I would play the gig while avoiding the stage edges as much as possible.

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Hey, I'm a (volunteer) fireman and I WOULD run into a burning building to save someone... HOWEVER, and this is critically important, I WOULD NOT do it if it meant, after full evaluation, I was going to be injured or die nor would I put my team at physical risk either. The very first thing that we are taught is I AM NUMBER ONE. Have I done some pretty risky stuff that the average Joe wouldn't think about doing? Sure, but I'm also trained in this stuff and we drill, drill, drill till we can perform the job in our sleep.

 

That being said, I understand completely regarding "the show must go on" and have probably done some stuff at gigs that I shouldn't have - in some instances I can chalk it up to ignorance (the true meaning of ignorance - i.e. not knowing any better) and in others to the show is too important to blow off (for whatever reason). Just living isn't safe as a general rule of thumb, heck, you can kill yourself taking a shower! As human adults I'd like to think we take every situation, evaluate the potential outcomes (good or bad), weigh them against each other and make an educated decision based on experience to proceed or walk - not because we can be big and bad and in control. In your recent situation, you'll get a myriad of "I would've's", "you should've's" but truthfully, unless the person is in exactly the same position, they can't honestly say what they would've done.

 

Stix

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How one deals with different "Would I walk?" scenarios, probably has a lot to do with prior experience, good or bad. If you just got lucky a bunch of times in the past, your threshold is probably lower for walking away, regardless of whatever your abstract position is on things like this.

 

Me, I don't mess with squirrely electricity. It's not just the personal risk or liability, I've had gear fried with bad wiring, like losing a nice $200 Radial DI when there was current on the ground between two outlets. Boom! Smoke and everything. After learning my lesson, I now test every circuit on a gig, and yeah... I'll walk if there's anything iffy about it. Even if nobody is injured, I'm not likely to get much more than a "sorry about that!" if my gear is fried. We do things in sound reinforcement that aren't all that common for the average civilian, like connecting grounds across multiple circuits. So the owner of the venue may not even know there's a problem, especially at a gig like a wedding at a private venue that isn't normally used for commercial entertainment.

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If I know that it's dangerous and if something was to happen I would regret doing it, yes I will give them the option of fixing it or walking. I would feel terrible if somebody was to get hurt and it was because of a bad decision on my part.

 

I walked this summer on a gig, actually I stayed but the system didn't get turned on because there was no power and the suggestions of an old hillbilly genereator that sort of ran was a non-option in my book. I got paid in full as I sat and read a book and the band ate dinner. They forgot to contract for power after about 5 reminders.

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Why do I get the feeling people here look FORWARD to the situations where they "can" walk? Almost like it's a power-trip or something. COULD I have walked and not violated my contract? Probably. But I wasn't looking for a way to get OUT of the gig; I was looking for ways to continue. It seemed safe enough and like we maybe even resolved the situation by showtime, so----The Show Must Go On.


Was it the by-the-textbook safest thing to do? Probably not. But I evaluated everything to best of my ability and went forward. I wasn't in the mood to play "I'm The Boss Here And I'm Gonna Ruin Everbody's Night Because I CAN". I've made plenty of stupid decisions and lived to tell about it thus far in my life; I'm sure I'll make plenty more.

 

 

Yea, it might seem like folks are jumping all over you. I get where you're coming from, and if you personally wanted to take the risk, that's your prerogative.

 

I was tyring to point out, without being holier than thou, that for other folks out there in forum land the show must go on, unless it's unsafe to do so. And then you should have a huddle and try to resolve the issues - that's my opinion anyway.

 

At least that's what I try and do. Have I done stupid things in the past, probably. Would I care to repaeat them or see anyone else do so , defintely not.

 

I think I've only walked from one gig in recent memory. I've threatened on a few, but that has generally helped achieve a suitable outcome.

 

Glad you came out okay.

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1st rule for a new venue: CHECK POWER.

 

Did a party gig in a NEW garage, tons of outlet AND easily accessible CB panel. One of the outlets was wired backwards nuetral/hot THREE FEET from the panel.

 

A plumber friend found a hot receptical chassis in my own house on one of the old knob and tube fed outlets near the floor in an old 1st floor 1/2 bathroom when installing a pedestal sink. Tight space, touching the copper water line and the screw holding the outlet cover. ZAP! Because of the pedestal, couldn't remove or rewire the outlet (knob & tube installs rarely have any extra "pull" wire to them). Put a blanking plate over the outlet and taped over the retaining screw initially. Later cut and pulled the wires from the basement. That USED to be the only outlet in that bathroom and my wife used it for her hair dryer. Since then I managed to run a new circuit with a GFI outlet placed high on the opposite wall.

 

Boomerweps

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