rehearsal room - PA speaker placement

[zzzxtreme]

hi guys, I'm interested in going for full PA + Sub system for band rehearsal. for guitars and bass, I would use Peavey Revalver VSTi. for drums, Superior Drummer + Drumagog.

 

How many PA speakers do I need though for every member of the band to hear it loud and clear ? the Room is medium size, enough for instruments and maybe a 3 seater sofa. I assume I need at least 1 sub-woofer for the low end. Will 12" PA speakers suffice ? How do I place them in the room ?

 

or should I place them at the ceiling ? Any help greatly appreciated !

 

Note : I'm catering for mostly death/black metal bands

 

[jwlussow]

A full PA in that size room will be problematic. Way too much speaker. Are you trying to eliminate all amps and the drum kit? If the kit is a regular kit with triggers it will be even harder to tame the room. The only way I see "loud and clear" happening in that room for death metal would be IEMs. I would keep all the speakers down low like floor monitors. The sub can go anywhere. A good 12" will work with subs. I would probably have one sub and a floor monitor for each performer. Have a higher quality monitor for the singer.

[zzzxtreme]

jwlussow thanks a lot. yeah im trying to eliminate all guitar amps, and use software amp modeler. thought maybe I could get better rehearsal experience for bands, because even in common jamming studios with real guitar/keyboard amps, it's difficult to hear other instruments. so I naively assume good PA system would be an improvement

 

or maybe will this work better ? the whole band face one direction towards the 2 PA speaker.

 

[jwlussow]

I say get the speakers as far away from the mics as possible. Put them on the floor and angle them up. The sub can go anywhere. Have the band face the speakers. Better speakers might be better at feedback rejection but the loudness of the drums will pretty much control the quality of what is and isn't heard. If you can switch to all electronic drums you will have a much easier time getting things heard. Acoustic drums with a heavy metal head knocking drummer will be difficult to get the vocals in front of. You might want to consider an isolation cage for the drums. Your plan is doable but it will take some room tweaking. What are the walls made of? You may need to treat the walls if they are very reflective.

[trevcda]

This seems like a good application for a Jam Hub type device.

[Caspar]

+1 for the Jamhub...Great piece of gear...

[MAndrade]

I've searched on the internet about it, and I could not find an answer. I want to place 2 speakers 12'' 150 watts each to a rehearsal room and don't know how to position them. It would be better on the ground or on supports above the head? Which high? The room is 16 feet x 16 feet. This is a scheme of the room:

 

 

 

 

The question is: what is the best place to put them?

 

Thanks in advance. Sorry for the English.

[monthlymixcd]

I say treat a rehearsal space like you would treat a stage plot. If possible, everyone gets their own monitor mix (or shares a mix that works for them), monitors on the floor or IEMs, everyone facing the audience... or "the sofa" as in the OPs post in this thread... as if you're playing live. Keep the "stage" volume at a reasonable level and learn to listen to each other... that's part of being a professional musician.

 

Now, in situations where the drums are solely eDrums and amps are solely amp modelers... then you'd still feed everyone enough of everything in their monitor mix to make them happy, but if you just don't have the gear to provide everyone their own mix then it's even more important to keep the "stage" volume down in order to hear the whole band including the PA for the modelers/eDrums/vox.

 

If you're rehearsal space is acoustically reflective then get super- or hyper-cardiod mics and learn how to use them.

[agedhorse]

In a small room, it's likely that gain before feedback limitations will be much more of a challenge than you are expecting. This is the "elephant in the room" that you are not yet seeing.

[Comoxsam]

I say set up the same way you would on stage. That way everyone gets used to how loud they need to be and you can tweak so everyone can hear each other. Place your speakers where your mains speakers would normally be for a live show but point your speakers back at yourselves just loud enough so everyone can hear. That is how my band used to do it.

 

In a small space you aren't going to be able to push the volume too loud but it shouldn't have to be very loud for practice. If you get too loud you aren't going to be able to hear anything well so what is the point?

 

If you want to be loud get a JamHub. You can rock out like you are playing in a giant stadium and hear everything perfectly.

[wesg]

My band practices with our gigging monitor setup and amps, playing at typical stage volume. GBF is indeed the biggest problem in my basement. Careful notching on the 31-band GEQ makes an enormous difference. As does speaker placement, microphone pickup pattern, microphone technique, and closing the window blinds.

[Drummer44]

FWIW... we run bass, guitars, and keys through the mixer -- no instrument amps --- with output to one small powered sub and to a power amp and two 12" powered tops. Musicians along a long wall, tops on the other side of the room facing musicians are essentially monitors. I play acoustic drums, with dynamics suitable for the room; no drum mics. Works.

 

Individual mixes might be gravy, but the room is too small to need that -- and our vocal style wouldn't benefit much, anyway. OTOH, I've experimented with a third -- powered -- top, and I'm still fooling with that as a potential vocal-only monitor.

 

-D44

 

 

 

[Craig Vecchione]

I say set up the same way you would on stage. That way everyone gets used to how loud they need to be and you can tweak so everyone can hear each other. Place your speakers where your mains speakers would normally be for a live show but point your speakers back at yourselves just loud enough so everyone can hear. That is how my band used to do it.

 

In a small space you aren't going to be able to push the volume too loud but it shouldn't have to be very loud for practice. If you get too loud you aren't going to be able to hear anything well so what is the point?

 

If you want to be loud get a JamHub. You can rock out like you are playing in a giant stadium and hear everything perfectly.

 

It's a good idea to position the musician's relative to where they'd be in performance, but it's much more important that they be able to hear each other. The drums are the limiting factor and usually the problem, so much work has to go into isolating an acoustic kit. When space and budget allow, building a small isolation room works well. It also makes it abundantly clear to the drummer just how loud he really is. Electronic drums are probably always a cheaper alternative, but aren't always accepted by all drummers.

 

The issue really always boils down to the band...if they are professionals, they understand that rehearsal is for becoming cohesive, finding and correcting mistakes, and playing tight. It's not for strutting your 350-watt full stack or acting like the rockstar you wish you were. So playing at reasonable levels, even for death metal, is crucial. You can spend a fortune building, and hours arranging a workable rehearsal space, but it will never work if the band is immature.

[WynnD]

I was really enjoying the "loud and clear" part of the question. In my experience, loud is rarely clear. And clear is rarely loud.

[Comoxsam]

 

It's a good idea to position the musician's relative to where they'd be in performance, but it's much more important that they be able to hear each other. The drums are the limiting factor and usually the problem, so much work has to go into isolating an acoustic kit. When space and budget allow, building a small isolation room works well. It also makes it abundantly clear to the drummer just how loud he really is. Electronic drums are probably always a cheaper alternative, but aren't always accepted by all drummers.

 

The issue really always boils down to the band...if they are professionals, they understand that rehearsal is for becoming cohesive, finding and correcting mistakes, and playing tight. It's not for strutting your 350-watt full stack or acting like the rockstar you wish you were. So playing at reasonable levels, even for death metal, is crucial. You can spend a fortune building, and hours arranging a workable rehearsal space, but it will never work if the band is immature.

 

Totally agree.

 

We talked our drummer into E-drums even though he was really against it at first. He's been battling noise complaints from his drumming for decades now. I explained if you had E-drums imagine how much better you'd be. The other line that I think resonated with him was not to think of it as acoustic drums vs. E-drums and choose which one was better. Instead compare it to acoustic guitar vs. electric. Both are different instruments and have their place. He agreed and our practices have been much better since.

[Bobby1Note]

We play balls-to-the-wall loud, in a 36'x32' "L" shaped room, with zero feedback. Acoustic drum-kit(mic'ed kick, snare, rack-toms), bass, electric guitars (lead and rhythm), and 3-4 vocal mics( EV 767a super-cardioid mics).. We're set up in the "heel" of the "L". There's a "wall" of twelve speakers stacked in the corner, and the drummer is in front of the "wall". The guitars and bass basically face the drummer. The 12" mains are parked on top of the "wall", to ensure they're not firing into the back of the drummers' head. A pair of Yorkie LS720P subs completes the speaker package.

 

Despite the reasonably large living-room, the key to getting loud without feedback requires judicious and sometimes brutal EQ'ing. Frequency-wise, everything that's not absolutely required gets cut. Hi-pass filters used on all mic channels, with all unnecessary high-frequencies rolled off. Vocal mic channel-gain(sensitivity), is set to a point where you don't hear the noise-floor, and no higher.. Mics are angled in such a way that the nulls face the speakers. A dbx 1231 31-band GEQ is used to EQ the speakers to the room (absolutely essential)

 

Although we're loud, we're not so loud as to have sore ears. Cutting a lot of the highs really helps in that regard. Zero harshness.

 

Why do we want "loud"??? Well, it's all about "restraint". When it comes to music, I don't want restraint....... I want the guys to let it all hang out. To that end, we also use full LED and laser lighting to help get into that "club" mood. I've yet to hear a single complaint from anyone in the room, including the non-musician spectators.

 

[WynnD]

Great music always involves restraint. Bad noise is always unrestrained. You know what I expect from one of your shows.

[WynnD]

I love intense music. It's like making love. The hard bite isn't as intense as the barest of touches. One is seriously more memorable.

[Pro Sound Guy]

Just get some pro speakers up on sticks and run vocals

 

Learn to play together by controlling volume, dynamics, speed ect.

Listen you only sound as good as you play together.

All a loudspeaker system does is amplify your band.

Like AH said...you will have feedback issues well before you get

any expected gain you are thinking of in a small room.

 

[Bobby1Note]

Great music always involves restraint. Bad noise is always unrestrained. You know what I expect from one of your shows.

 

Tell that to THIS guy.

 

[Pro Sound Guy]

Alvin Lee went home last year. I did get to see him close up with a three piece act. Really great...!

Perfect example of musicians who play together as a band and play with dynamics, and control volume.

 

[Bobby1Note]

Alvin Lee went home last year. I did get to see him close up with a three piece act. Really great...!

Perfect example of musicians who play together as a band and play with dynamics, and control volume.

 

My younger sister, and a few of my friends were at Woodstock. When I asked them what was the best act you saw at the show, the response was unanimous,,, Alvin Lee and Ten Years After. I would have killed to be there, but I had a business (restaurant) and had to work.