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$21,000 for three days rent - I'm in the wrong business!!!


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No, that's not what I got, that's what a hotel AV company wanted for 10 powered speakers, four screens, a Mackie 16 channel mixer, a GEQ, a snake, four lights and controller, and three wireless mics over a three day period for a music conference - $21,000. And that was a minimum quote. Maybe $3000.00 of that was for labour.

 

The organizers didn't have that kind of money, so it turns out I stepped in (wife was co-charing the conference) and donated WAY too much time, gear and effort.

 

Due to extenuating circumstances,we wound up using three sources of gear (includinig some of mine), and the total cost was closer to $5,000 for all three days. And in addition to the ballroom (and original AV quote) I provided six powered speakers and four projectors, to the various seminar rooms. And yes, I did originally offer the organizers a great rate for the whole conference but it was "pretty high". Turns out it would have been cheap by comparison.

 

I had a great time mixing four or five gigantic children's choirs and ensembles, micing the piano for the VSO conductor, mixing a string trio, a one man vocal show, and a Celtic/Pop band, plus a few other odds and ends.... but boy do I feel used and abused.

 

BTW I calculated at the hotel's AV rates my 49 hours over four days would have cost $3,234.00!

 

My brief contact with the AV company techs was very cordial, and they knew their stuff, but boy it sure made me ponder the sanity of the Rock 'n Roll world.

 

So who's doing corporate or hotel work? And where do I buy a ticket? Guess I should have tried to jump on that train a while ago. "Crusty old farts need not apply".

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Nope, just a complete lack of understanding of the business... and the costs of providing what ends up being virtually 24/7 client service.

 

Before you assume that the AV company is ripping you off, consider some of the things that I'm sure you are unaware of:

 

1. Depending on the AV company's contract with the hotel, it's likely that they are paying maybe 30-50% of the billable revenue to the hotel.

 

2. The hotel has costs, including their event manager, billing, insurance, storage rooms in their building, and event overhead.

 

3. The AV company needs to maintain a significant inventory that may not turn all that often but is still necessary to service the client's needs. That means that they have costs of depreciation that may be higher for some less used gear than other more used gear. They also have a shop steward or AV manager than handles client relations, does advance work, and is on site every day, even if there are no events or just a mic and a podium. There will also be a tech on site for the event, there will be overhead for this labor as well. Not all labor is billed directly to the client as a labor charge. Some is built into the gear as overhead.

 

I have to work with hotel AV providers as a service to a few of my clients when they are out on the road. By understanding how their business works, I was able to save one client ~$20k while maintaining a good professional working relationship with the in-house company and the in-house company who did the on-site work probably made MORE money with my help. THIS is what a professional working relationship is all about, but you have to understand how their world works first. I will work with them again next year and I have an open invitation to work their site in the future.

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Nope, just a complete lack of understanding of the business... and the costs of providing what ends up being virtually 24/7 client service.


Before you assume that the AV company is ripping you off, consider some of the things that I'm sure you are unaware of:


1. Depending on the AV company's contract with the hotel, it's likely that they are paying maybe 30-50% of the billable revenue to the hotel.


2. The hotel has costs, including their event manager, billing, insurance, storage rooms in their building, and event overhead.


3. The AV company needs to maintain a significant inventory that may not turn all that often but is still necessary to service the client's needs. That means that they have costs of depreciation that may be higher for some less used gear than other more used gear. They also have a shop steward or AV manager than handles client relations, does advance work, and is on site every day, even if there are no events or just a mic and a podium. There will also be a tech on site for the event, there will be overhead for this labor as well. Not all labor is billed directly to the client as a labor charge. Some is built into the gear as overhead.


I have to work with hotel AV providers as a service to a few of my clients when they are out on the road. By understanding how their business works, I was able to save one client ~$20k while maintaining a good professional working relationship with the in-house company and the in-house company who did the on-site work probably made MORE money with my help. THIS is what a professional working relationship is all about, but you have to understand how their world works first. I will work with them again next year and I have an open invitation to work their site in the future.

 

 

I might have given the wrong impression. I wasn't so much saying that the AV company was ripping anyone off, although there were some things that were off the chart. What I was really saying is that some of us rip ourselves off (and that includes me). BTW the hotel AV rep was a really good guy, and I think he appreciated me being the intermediary. He didn't have to put up with all the hours of nonsense, and was able to prep for a huge upcoming event.

 

I actually looked at some of their costs... they have a full time secretary, a warehouse lease or mortgage, inventory, trucks to maintain, heating, light, the nifty little golf shirts all the techs wear and on and on. All those things and more are wrapped up in their costs. However, I usually see the corporate AV world from the outside. This gig really laid out the many things I don't charge for, and probably couldn't get because I'm not treating my hobby as a business. Or should I say that I'm treating my business like a hobby?

 

BTW these guys seem to have the labour thing down. They have a twenty percent surcharge on labour that I'm assuming goes to the company to service payroll costs or ???

 

So I still say I'm in the wrong business, or perhaps as some might say, I'm not even in business - ouch reality bites.

 

Either way, it was an eye opener. And thanks for your insights.

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It's a lot different when you do this for a living, rather than for fun on the weekend. Most of the guys on this forum are never going to get ROI for the gear they're asking about. This is a "get what you pay for" gig. I don't know how well you pulled it off, but if you want quality equipment that's guaranteed to function and be operated properly, that's what it costs. An "amateur" might be able to pull it off without a hitch, but I can guarantee he's underselling himself and losing money - 100 times out of 100.

 

Sort of along these lines, I donate my time and equipment to the same two events each year, that ive done for several years now Every other ask for free rental or labor gets a polite, but stern "no." If I had a dollar for every "no" I've handed out, I might be able to afford to do some of them.

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It's a lot different when you do this for a living, rather than for fun on the weekend. Most of the guys on this forum are never going to get ROI for the gear they're asking about. This is a "get what you pay for" gig. I don't know how well you pulled it off, but if you want quality equipment that's guaranteed to function and be operated properly, that's what it costs. An "amateur" might be able to pull it off without a hitch, but I can guarantee he's underselling himself and losing money - 100 times out of 100.


Sort of along these lines, I donate my time and equipment to the same two events each year, that ive done for several years now Every other ask for free rental or labor gets a polite, but stern "no." If I had a dollar for every "no" I've handed out, I might be able to afford to do some of them.

 

 

 

I'm pretty self critical and I believe I pulled it off with nary a hitch. An argument could be made that I was the best person for the job because I've worked with a lot of children's groups as well as doing the Rock thing - more me in the monitors please!

 

As to gear, all of the gear I supplied was at least as good and in as good working order as the hotel company's. Much of my gear was better, not way better but better. But yes I hear ya about losing money....

 

I'm not in the habit of doing free gigs either (hard to refuse the wife though), but when I start factoring in all the work I do, it's as if I'm doing it for free even when I do get paid.

 

Still it's nobody's faut but my own. It's a fine line between doing it for the love of, and getting cranky and bitter about it all.

 

Oh well, there's no profit in complaining, so rant over.

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Projectors are expensive, putting anything up in the air is expensive, gear that works 100% is expensive.

 

 

and if the Hotel has a contract with Swank, AVI-SPL, PSAV and their gear "died" and they don't have a replacements on hand, they'll have a replacement item in route ASAP.

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One night in a Vegas hotel where we had to rent everything gave me the same impression on rates, but in reality they were justified. We hired in 4 wireless channels, an LS9/16, 4 QRX212 tops and 4 JBL Custom 2x18s (think Vertec.) We also had 5 IEM channels, and there were L'Acoutics wedges also provided for 5 people. Several racks of Lab Gruppens for power. Lights were a Hog IPC, about 36 P64 LEDs on 4 vertical truss, 4 Mac 2000 heads, and a few source fours hung from the ceiling. They also had an OH screen with projector for the band logo. This was a party for about 1200 people. They also provided an A1, two A2s, and a lighting director.

 

Show ran 4 hours....and the bill was almost $11K. I thought it was nuts when we agreed (since it was also in the ball park with others in the area.) Then we get there.....

 

Snake has to be run on the ceiling for almost 200' since nothing can be on the floor with serving carts everywhere. FOH had to have a large riser almost 30 feet long to fit FOH, lights, and seats for the people with checkbooks. System had to cover a room that was acoustically dead but held 1200 people so position and knowledge of the room itself was critical. Lighting had to be programmed after arrival because they had no idea what we wanted to "see" and din't need to ask in advance because we had never seen the room and had no idea what we needed. But the real killer was the warning sheet from the hotel that over 400 channels of wireless were being used in the hotel that night with Blue Man Group and a number of others of equal stature. We simply could NOT step on a single frequency for even one second without casing a MAJOR problem for someone somewhere.

 

In short, we wound up paying for the knowledge of working LARGE casinos (this was the Venetian Grand Ballroom.) Everything was union, nothing could go wrong, no mistakes with wireless hurting others and yet we still needed what we needed. Transitions from the opener (Ted Nugent) to us had to be seamless and fast. There could be no marks on walls, scuffs, etc. Since it was high visibility for a company event with deep pockets, everyone knew this event had to flow perfect with no error.

 

In hindsight, we got a great deal. It was just perfect. Clean stages, lighting exactly what it needed to be. No visible gear anywhere but behind the stage. Not one "blip" on wireless (OK one unit never worked and we were pushed for time and went with a guitar cable instead so no big deal.) System was sized perfect to the room and we never had to even hit a yellow light on the ladder. The A1 stood beside me all night at my request just in case I needed anything. He assisted in the areas I was over my head, and stayed out whenever he knew it artistic discretion.

 

They also provided back line of a 7 piece drum set, and one Fender Twin. The drums were tuned perfectly, and the kick pedal was exactly what we spec'd.

 

Might seem like a lot of money for a single night, and in some cases might well be overkill, but sometimes it just exactly what you need. When you see the effort that goes into making it perfect on a large scale, you realize just how easy bar gigs are. Could I do that every night. Yes, I could work in that environment. Would I want to? No way. It was serious stress. We flew cross country with nothing but a few guitars and a pair of drums sticks, everyones personal buds, and my laptop. We walked into a HUGE room with everything done, ready for soundcheck, played a perfect show, and got to just tip our hats as we left at the end of the night., while they were 25' in the air on cherry pickers getting the snake off the ceiling. They earned their money.

 

The stage:

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The room (us standing with Mark Wills ("It was 1970 Something" picked by Billboard as country song of the decade.)

17278_1206854893351_1288033847_479901_45

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I'm in that business...well sort of, our company does system integration for permanent installs, but we work closely with event rentals and we did a hotel based show for the recent IAAPA show. We provided the projectors and show audio, but the stage setup for the band was provided by the hotel. 2 wireless mics, 2 PRX612's on sticks, 4 LED Par 64's on the floor and a 12'x8' stage. For one night it was close to $5k.

But as was said, they provided full support and had backup equipment on site.

 

Here's a link to the projection we did. The projection content is nothing spectacular, but the setup is just as critical for anything we do for theme parks or the gubmint.

 

 

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Hate to break it to some of yous guys - but even if you're getting $300 for a gig that you have to provide the PA for this is a hobby and not a business for you. An A2 (AKA knowledgable roady) hereabouts gets $25/hr in a real sound company. Assuming you're only spending 8 hours getting ready for, packing for, driving for, doing, driving back and unloading that's $200 right there assuming you're not worth A1 pay. 10K worth of equipment rented for $100 minus gas and vehicle expenses is not gonna give you a positive ROI for sure :( !

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My wife has been telling me that for years...

 

You are certainly right. I get little ROI but then again the guy down the street plays golf and spends $150 a weekend with no chance of EVER breaking even so I am doing better than that...but not by much. ;-)

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I'm not in the habit of doing free gigs either (hard to refuse the wife though), but when I start factoring in all the work I do, it's as if I'm doing it for free even when I do get paid.

 

 

I give my Wife one freebie a year. She would have me do all of her group gigs free given a chance.

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Hate to break it to some of yous guys - but even if you're getting $300 for a gig that you have to provide the PA for this is a hobby and not a business for you. An A2 (AKA knowledgable roady) hereabouts gets $25/hr in a real sound company. Assuming you're only spending 8 hours getting ready for, packing for, driving for, doing, driving back and unloading that's $200 right there assuming you're not worth A1 pay. 10K worth of equipment rented for $100 minus gas and vehicle expenses is not gonna give you a positive ROI for sure
:(
!

 

True. I treat my hobby as a business. Reporting income claiming deductions etc etc. definitely small potatoes. Some people have boats, some people have ATV's, some people camp, hell my mom has a sewing machine worth almost $3000. I do sound as a paid hobby. My buddies with their boats etc aren't making any money back from it. It helps to fund itself, but it's not going to replace my $40/hr job anytime soon...

 

 

I have buddies who do $3000 damage to their 4x4 truck, then spend a month working on it and fixing it back up, just to do it again.

 

 

Just choose your poison and jump in.

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My wife has been telling me that for years...

You are certainly right. I get little ROI but then again the guy down the street plays golf and spends $150 a weekend with no chance of EVER breaking even so I am doing better than that...but not by much. ;-)

:D I'm not implying there's anything wrong with doing it as a hobby but I do try not to poach work from the "real" sound companies who need to make a profit. And I don't pretend to myself or others that I'm a "business".

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Projectors are expensive, putting anything up in the air is expensive, gear that works 100% is expensive.

 

 

and projectors have a short service life compared with much AB gear. 5 years is just about the limits, meaning that all costs need to be amortized within that 5 years. A projector in the AV presentation class runs between $15k and $50k per unit.

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:D
I'm not implying there's anything wrong with doing it as a hobby but I do try not to poach work from the "real" sound companies who need to make a profit. And I don't pretend to myself or others that I'm a "business".

 

I try to stay in the bars where I stand out by comparison, and away from large shows where I pale by comparison. I know my place in the food chain. I do a few larger events a year just to keep up my skills, but for the most part I do club sound only. We don't really have any companies around here that fit the in-between market. The local "companies" will send out an 8 channel powered Mackie, two monitors on one mix, and a pair of speakers on sticks with an operator for $1K for a 4 hour show. If you had to rent a decent tops/subs system with 16 channels and 4 monitor mixes, they would start around $2K a night before lights are added in. No bands can afford it in bars here, and for some of the slightly larger events, the price is OK but the system they get won't work for them. I ride the line between being too large for most local bars, and too small for large events. That puts me in my comfort zone and gives me about the right amount of work a year that I can handle at my age.

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:D
I'm not implying there's anything wrong with doing it as a hobby but I do try not to poach work from the "real" sound companies who need to make a profit. And I don't pretend to myself or others that I'm a "business".

 

True. I'm more than anything helping out the local scene. Without me, there really IS no scene. The odd random band might have an SOS setup, barely. So it's worked out pretty good, all in all.

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Don't forget lamp costs. We've got a fleet of 75 Digital Projections 20K ANSI lumen projectors deployed for a client all over the country that we do remote monitoring on. We have to fly techs out to each of these sites roughly once a quarter to replace lamps. The cost on the lamps alone is $4500 a pop, and if we're lucky we get 900 hours out of them. Add in hotel, plane tickets, rental car and meals for the tech and yeah, it gets expensive. Corporate installs and service contracts are a very different world.

 

AVI-SPL and PSAV are both dealers for our stuff, and as someone else mentioned, they have a challenging business model. They have to stock all kinds of crap at these hotels that may get rented once or twice a year, but they still have to have them on hand. Unlike the bar gigs where probably 80% or more of your "stuff" is being used / rented at every show, it's not uncommon for a hotel to have any more than 10-15% of it's inventory generating revenue at any given time, yet meanwhile you've got cap ex and depreciation hitting you on the the remaining 85% every month regardless of if it's in use or making money for you.

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Don't forget lamp costs. We've got a fleet of 75 Digital Projections 20K ANSI lumen projectors deployed for a client all over the country that we do remote monitoring on. We have to fly techs out to each of these sites roughly once a quarter to replace lamps. The cost on the lamps alone is $4500 a pop, and if we're lucky we get 900 hours out of them. Add in hotel, plane tickets, rental car and meals for the tech and yeah, it gets expensive. Corporate installs and service contracts are a very different world.


AVI-SPL and PSAV are both dealers for our stuff, and as someone else mentioned, they have a challenging business model. They have to stock all kinds of crap at these hotels that may get rented once or twice a year, but they still have to have them on hand. Unlike the bar gigs where probably 80% or more of your "stuff" is being used / rented at every show, it's not uncommon for a hotel to have any more than 10-15% of it's inventory generating revenue at any given time, yet meanwhile you've got cap ex and depreciation hitting you on the the remaining 85% every month regardless of if it's in use or making money for you.

 

 

Absolutely. It's the cost of convenience and customer service.

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I've got a three day corporate event this month. I get $ 150.00 per day for the wireless mics, $ 30.00 for wired, $ .10 per foot for mic cable, etc., etc. It starts on a Sunday and my time is $ 100.00 per hour.

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I've got a three day corporate event this month. I get $ 150.00 per day for the wireless mics, $ 30.00 for wired, $ .10 per foot for mic cable, etc., etc. It starts on a Sunday and my time is $ 100.00 per hour.

Be that way you capitalist you :mad: !

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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