Members heath_eld Posted September 15, 2012 Members Share Posted September 15, 2012 I'm the band engineer (providing gear) for a function band. This is my main band. Been with them for 8 years or so. In Australia we have a concept called testing and tagging (basically, testing any electronic equipment that there is no earth leakage). Bit of a scam in my opinion but it is what it is and we have to get it done. Anyway, i had my gear tested in March. This isnt cheap - it basically costs what i get paid for a gig to get it done. The tags are valid for 12 months. I've reviewed the Australian standard due to the below situation, and it does not say how long the tags are allowed to be valid for, but my understanding is that 12 months is normal (has been every time i have had it done). My band has booked a gig (non-agency gig, so no written contract) with a client, at a particular venue (this is a function, venue and client aren't related). Band leader rings venue and they not only want gear tested and tagged, apparently they want it done in the past 3 months. They also want a list of what gear we will be bringing. This doesnt bother me as much as it paints a picture that the venue is difficult. No other venue asks for a list of equipment. I'm not thrilled with this. My gear is currently tested and tagged, and if I get it done again to suit this venue, it means doing the gig for nothing. Its not in the contract, and its not the actual clients fault. I do this for fun really, but dont want to pay to do the gig. Not to mention the massive amount of time involved. What do you do with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mutha Goose Posted September 15, 2012 Members Share Posted September 15, 2012 Charge the band for the extra service. Let the band charge the venue... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted September 15, 2012 Members Share Posted September 15, 2012 If the tags are already valid tell them so and that their request means extra time and expense (yes, charge them for your time to do it as you'd not have to spend time otherwise). If they balk and still insist then walk. This is where contracts come in handy. You price AFTER knowing what the requirements are and are clear in the contract that any additional requests will be met with an additional quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SteinbergerHack Posted September 15, 2012 Members Share Posted September 15, 2012 Its not in the contract, End of discussion. Unless there's a legal code requirement that you are in violation of, it's outside of the contract and you have every right to charge for it. If I were in that position, I would have the band leader tell the venue that the gear will meet all applicable legal codes and standards, and that they (the band) are not in a position to make any further requests. Thinking beyond the current situation, this sort of thing normally means that someone at that venue has been burned before by a shoddy operation. Convince them that you're a professional who knows what you're doing, and the problem is generally solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Galend Posted September 15, 2012 Members Share Posted September 15, 2012 In Australia we have a concept called testing and tagging (basically, testing any electronic equipment that there is no earth leakage). Bit of a scam in my opinion but it is what it is and we have to get it done. it's a pain in the ass hey! I hire my gear out so it needs to be done every 3 months by Australian law. I am in the same boat as the other guys though. I would tell the venue manager that your testing and tagging has been done and complies with Australian law. If they want it to be re done to comply with their '3 months rule', they can fund it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heath_eld Posted September 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 15, 2012 it's a pain in the ass hey! I hire my gear out so it needs to be done every 3 months by Australian law.I am in the same boat as the other guys though. I would tell the venue manager that your testing and tagging has been done and complies with Australian law. If they want it to be re done to comply with their '3 months rule', they can fund it. Where does that (the three months) come from? I read the standard and it was very vague? It seemed to "suggest" that if you were hiring gear it should be done every time? Is "hiring" the same thing as doing owner operator PA stuff? these are the qns i wish were answered clearly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heath_eld Posted September 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 15, 2012 our problem with the contract is that whatever contract we have is with the client - not the venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted September 15, 2012 Members Share Posted September 15, 2012 our problem with the contract is that whatever contract we have is with the client - not the venue. That doesn't matter. If you're complying with the law, anything the venue wants flows through the band and to you. You tell the band that's not in the contract, but can be added and you'll work up a quote. Shame on the venue for not stating this policy to the band up front or putting it in the contract. If the venue did divulge this upfront then shame on the band for not telling you until after they contracted with you. A few years ago the client told me, post contract, that the venue required the band carry a million dollar liability policy. I gave the client 2 choices.... A) get the venue to waive the requirement or 2) obtain the needed insurance themselves, which is available as "event insurance". If the client chose to do neither then we would have not been allowed to perform per the venue. If we were unable to book a similar show, we would have kept the deposit as the requirements of the venue are the responsibility of the client and it's between those 2 parties. You can't reveal important policies like that after everyone has contracted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 15, 2012 Members Share Posted September 15, 2012 I have delt with the mechanics of this and frankly it's part bull{censored}, but also partly valid. The bull{censored} part involves folks using the law or regulations to generate a profit center for little to no benefit to anybody but the testing services and the agencies that feed them. The good side of this is that most electrical accidents are preventable and the testing (assumed it's really done and not just a wink and a nod) will catch things like missing ground/earth connections, etc. The insulation resistance is pretty dubious IME, I can't ever recall a situation where insulation systems have failed on any pro audio or better quality MI gear has been involved. Same applies to the ground bond test, never seen one fail. By far and away the most common cause of concern is missing or broken off ground/earth pins. For 240 volt systems, this is a bit more serious than what we see here with systems that are at the most 120 volts above ground. Note that there is an exception for equipment that is fed only from RCD 's (same as our GFCI's), in that only the RDC must be tested. It appears that 3 months could apply if that's whatthe venue requires... but there MAY be a requirement that their own devices must carry the same level of testing, ie. they can't apply a higher standard to others than they do to themselves. This is common to prevent abuse of the system. Perhaps the solution is for all of your power to be delivered via tagged (within 3 months) RCD suppled receptacles. That would be WAY less expensive and inconvenient to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted September 16, 2012 Members Share Posted September 16, 2012 I would tell the band you'll do the gig but charge them 2x the tester over the price of the gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heath_eld Posted September 17, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 17, 2012 I would tell the band you'll do the gig but charge them 2x the tester over the price of the gig. Yeah. I'm in a {censored} with it because they're my friends (at least the long term members are), and i am quite comfortable that this is not their fault - even though a better contract would resolve it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted September 17, 2012 Members Share Posted September 17, 2012 Friends will understand when you tell them the price want up 3x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mutha Goose Posted September 17, 2012 Members Share Posted September 17, 2012 Yeah. I'm in a {censored} with it because they're my friends (at least the long term members are), and i am quite comfortable that this is not their fault - even though a better contract would resolve it. You are not raising your price... you are passing the gig-specific charges onto the act who should in turn be passing them onto who ever booked the gig at that venue. This is business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heath_eld Posted September 18, 2012 Author Members Share Posted September 18, 2012 I have delt with the mechanics of this and frankly it's part bull{censored}, but also partly valid. The bull{censored} part involves folks using the law or regulations to generate a profit center for little to no benefit to anybody but the testing services and the agencies that feed them. The good side of this is that most electrical accidents are preventable and the testing (assumed it's really done and not just a wink and a nod) will catch things like missing ground/earth connections, etc.The insulation resistance is pretty dubious IME, I can't ever recall a situation where insulation systems have failed on any pro audio or better quality MI gear has been involved. Same applies to the ground bond test, never seen one fail. By far and away the most common cause of concern is missing or broken off ground/earth pins. For 240 volt systems, this is a bit more serious than what we see here with systems that are at the most 120 volts above ground.Note that there is an exception for equipment that is fed only from RCD 's (same as our GFCI's), in that only the RDC must be tested. It appears that 3 months could apply if that's whatthe venue requires... but there MAY be a requirement that their own devices must carry the same level of testing, ie. they can't apply a higher standard to others than they do to themselves. This is common to prevent abuse of the system.Perhaps the solution is for all of your power to be delivered via tagged (within 3 months) RCD suppled receptacles. That would be WAY less expensive and inconvenient to deal with. I was reading about RCD (residual current devices?) in the standard. What does that mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 18, 2012 Members Share Posted September 18, 2012 It means that if the equipment is protected (supplied by) by a tagged RCD, then that's all that needs to be tagged as it becomes the primary protection. It may be a challenge to explain this however, and since I don't live in AU. I don't know how universally accepted it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tuchan Posted September 19, 2012 Members Share Posted September 19, 2012 I have had this issue over here in Adelaide mate. The town hall wanted all the gear to be "test tagged" or the show did not go on and the gear does not come in the building. None of my gear is test tagged at all. I told them this and also said I am willing to bet that none of the band gear on stage will be either and some of the guitar amps may well be 30+ years old. It is either we go ahead like this or the evening (large corporate) show does not go ahead. They hit me with this loading in on a late Friday afternoon. I simply explained that I will use 3 circuits, my own RCD's (also not tagged) then this will get plugged in to the house power. Should anything go wrong it will trip my switches, if that fails then it will trip yours. I then said are your switches tagged and current? I continued to load in and the gig went very well with out a hitch. I do understand safety very well, I have a background of underground mining. At times you need to let things be they way they have been for a very long time, with in reason of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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