Members bigfatskinny Posted November 21, 2012 Members Share Posted November 21, 2012 Are these the choosen path with you pro sound guys? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Art Flood Posted November 21, 2012 Members Share Posted November 21, 2012 G'day bfs I think your question might be a bit too broad to get a decent response here. So perhaps refine your question a little. If you are wondering whether IEM are the way to go you will find plenty of yeahs and nays on the topic. So have a good search through past posts. I have been pondering this for a while and am still sitting on the fence. The main thing stopping me is that I can't convice the rest of my band to take the plunge. A decent IEM system will cost a few backs and the indiviudal user has to at least cough up for a good set of ear buds. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marko Posted November 21, 2012 Members Share Posted November 21, 2012 On stage, I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fdew Posted November 21, 2012 Members Share Posted November 21, 2012 I think they are the best thing to happen to live sound since the PA system. The users hear better. The stage volume can be a lot lower making a safer environment for the users. The inputs to the board are cleaner due to no stage wash, therefor the sound guy can build a better mix and the audience gets better sound. You do need either a good guy setting up your mixes or personal mixers and some training. Our group has been using them for years and they are uncomfortable using stage monitors now. If you are serious about your sound I can't think of any reason not to. Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members minn12 Posted November 21, 2012 Members Share Posted November 21, 2012 Originally Posted by bigfatskinny Are these the choosen path with you pro sound guys? If you are asking a sound guy whether or not he would rather have a band on all wedges or all in-ears, my answer would be all on in-ears. Some of my best shows are with bands that roll in with their own in-ears rack. Much quieter stage, and they get to fine tune their own ear mixes. I'm seeing more bands moving to in-ears with their own monitor mixer in a rack all ready to go, pretty much already pre-set. They seem to hear better, and therefore sing and play better. Win-win all around for band, crowd, and sound tech. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members madjack Posted November 22, 2012 Members Share Posted November 22, 2012 Great if everybody in the band uses them. Not so much for just one or two while others are on wedges, as it makes onstage communication more difficult. Just my personal opinion and observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted November 22, 2012 Members Share Posted November 22, 2012 From a BAND persons perspective: They are lighter than wedges They are quicker to setup than wedges They allow you to hear everything You have almost no chance of feedback ever again With the lower stage volume, the FOH mix sounds less muddy .... tighter There are arguments from many people that they make you feel disconnected/detached. Guitar players gripe that they can't hear "their tone". Drummers and bass players generally like them since they are stunned to be able to finally hear the singer and each other. Singers almost universally love them.What I have found is that in-ear systems make your band tighter. What you thought sounded so great (when you couldn't really hear the whole band) sometimes sounds like crap when you can hear it so well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Art Flood Posted November 22, 2012 Members Share Posted November 22, 2012 Originally Posted by OneEng What you thought sounded so great (when you couldn't really hear the whole band) sometimes sounds like crap when you can hear it so well. Love it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted November 22, 2012 Members Share Posted November 22, 2012 Originally Posted by OneEng Guitar players gripe that they can't hear "their tone". I got told that once. I replied, "That is your tone. Now fix it." Of course I had to explain that what he was hearing is what he was sending to the PA. Unfortunately that wasn't the end of the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted November 22, 2012 Members Share Posted November 22, 2012 We roll with our own IEMs, and even if house-provided sound, our own rack/monitor mixes, and splitter snake. Wouldn't do our show without unless under extremely unique circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Randyman Posted November 22, 2012 Members Share Posted November 22, 2012 So with IEMs are you just dialing up aux sends like you would for monitors or is there another monitor mixer involved? Somebody said it was faster insofar as you could leave the settings the same, but that pre-supposes bringing your own mixer- is it a slam dunk even with someone elses mixer if you know what you're doing? Is the engineer able to hear the mix of every individual IEM mix? (I suppose you'd have to have aux solo capability). I would imagine that also means that in the event of a problem, the engineer would be able to discreetly talk to any of the band members and be heard only by that person. I imagine that's the beauty of some of the IPad/IPhone controlled mixes, where everyone in the band can dial in their IEM mix. And what about acoustic drum kit bleed? And what about micing guitars? On $1,000 and up boards, are there typically fx feeds to the aux sends, so that even though you're getting a mono input signal, at least you're getting a little sweetening-? Considering you'd have to pay around at least around $400-$600 each for 4 monitors (of course you could pay much more...), would the equivalent quality for a 4 channel IEM system run in the same ballpark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Art Flood Posted November 23, 2012 Members Share Posted November 23, 2012 Hi Randyman, You raise some good questions. My comments are based on a very small amount of experience but a whole heap of reading and research (as I procrastinate about going IEM). If you owned a digital mixer, as I do, once the IEM mix is set up I can save the settings and use them again at the next gig. If someone else is providing the mixer at the next gig it would be a start from scratch situation. Whether the engineer is able to hear every IEM mix would depend on the mixer. I think once you get above entry level most mixers enable this. I like the idea of individuals using and iphone/ipad to control their own mix - it sure makes sense for my relatively small set-up and particularly for gigs where I do the sound and play. A real pro set would probably have a mix engineer dedicated to the IEM system. Fx feeds to aux sends - once again depends on the mixer. All the mixers I regularly use can do this but have limitations such as only two effects can be used. Unlike monitor mixes where preventing feedback is a major concern, mixes for IEMs are about getting the best sound to the ears of the performer. IEM mixes ideally need to be eq'd and fabric softened (ie reverb/delay) to sweeten the sound and create a sense of spaciousness. In other words quite different to a monitor mix and your mixer will need to support this. The cost of a good IEM set-up would depend a lot on the gear you already have. If you want 4 different IEM mixes you are going to need four aux sends on your mixer (eight if you want stereo). I think you can get a reasonable wireless system for $600 (for each person) more again to get custom earmolds and better ear buds. Once again please note my comments are mainly based on what I've read - my own band has one gutiarist using IEMs and another band I run sound for has the lead singer using IEMs. So I am very much in the learning stage and very small scale. I only posted because I am spending so much time obsessing about IEMs at the moment (its therapy being able to pass this on). Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fdew Posted November 23, 2012 Members Share Posted November 23, 2012 There are at least three things being discussed here and they don't need to go together. A in ear monitor A wireless transmitter and receiver for the IEM. Nice but not always needed. For example, the drummer and guitar and keyboard players may not need wireless. A personal mixer, or auxs, or extra mixes from the main board. Some mixers will support up to 24 separate soft mixers. Also a personal mixer can be separate from the mixer (example avion) The Avion mixers just need line audio ins from your mixer. With some mixers the only extras needed are a headphone amp and the ear buds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted November 23, 2012 Members Share Posted November 23, 2012 If you are considering switching to IEMs, you really need to plan on doing it right and bringing everything you need to the gig. All your own mics, your wireless system racked and mounted with your own monitor mixer with a split snake to hand to the stage crew or to patch into the house system yourself and somebody that knows how to trouble shoot and fix the inevitable problems that will arise. Expecting someone else to mix your IEMs is asking for trouble unless you have lots of time for soundcheck. The other big issue is that unless your band is at a certain level, even with all that gear packaged and ready to go, there are plenty of venues and gigs that won't let you mess with their setup or festival patch unless you're the headliner, or if you play bars with a multi band bill I can imagine running into plenty of pushback in that situation too. Done right, I'm convinced there isn't anything better, but do it only semi right and I would think it could actually be worse really easily. We've talked about switching with my wife's band, but the cost and hassle hasn't made sense for us as they control their stage level well enough that it is only an issue in the most extreme of cases and, we play quite a few small festivals in the summertime with short turn around time that would usually not be happy about unplugging their festival patch and the extra time required would come out of our set time. It's just been cheaper and easier to learn how to play well together without loud stage levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted November 23, 2012 Members Share Posted November 23, 2012 Originally Posted by Randyman And what about acoustic drum kit bleed? And what about micing guitars? Drum bleed will occur with pen mics around of course, but it has never been a real problem for us. And that's with an open vocal mic in my (drummer) position. Previously, we did have to ride my vox channel and keep the signal pretty controlled due to bleed from my snare drum, but I picked up an Audix OM7, and it's not really an issue anymore. We mic guitars and run them through our monitor mixes. We mic/line in EVERYTHING that we want in the IEMS...all four vocals, both guitars, sequences, keys, and except in the smallest venues, bass. Only thing that's consistently not in the monitor mix is drums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PureSoundEnt Posted November 23, 2012 Members Share Posted November 23, 2012 Originally Posted by lifeloverwg Expecting someone else to mix your IEMs is asking for trouble unless you have lots of time for soundcheck.Done right, I'm convinced there isn't anything better, but do it only semi right and I would think it could actually be worse really easily. As a soundman, this has been my experience. The few times I have dealt with bands using IEMs, it has been a nightmare. I am convinced it is because these bands were not doing it correctly. Most of them had very cheap ear buds and they were complaining about how crappy they were and how they needed to save money to buy better ones. They also didn't have a way to mix their IEMs themselves so soundcheck took FOREVER and then some! Just a huge pain in the butt because even after spending all that time tweaking and tweaking and tweaking during soundcheck, they were still unhappy during their performance.I do hope that one day I will get to use IEMs with a band that has it more together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heath_eld Posted November 24, 2012 Members Share Posted November 24, 2012 I mix a band where one player has them... i also use them myself. Love them. As an engineer you don't have the performer trying to make eye contact and gesturing "up" at their monitor... as a performer you can hear your instrument and the others you want, all while having far less volume going into your ears. I've recently been filling in at my mates church where the full band has IEMs - they have a much lower stage volume than i'm used to and i think the advantage to IEMs is a bit less with less stage volume.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fdew Posted November 24, 2012 Members Share Posted November 24, 2012 Originally Posted by heath_eld I've recently been filling in at my mates church where the full band has IEMs - they have a much lower stage volume than i'm used to and i think the advantage to IEMs is a bit less with less stage volume.... It is likely that they have lower stage volume BECAUSE they have IEMs. When we went to them we found that the acoustic instruments and those with there own speakers (In our case, the keyboard drum kit, and piano) went down in volume. Before IEMs each one would go louder in order to get more of me. With IEMs they don't need to so they don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigfatskinny Posted November 25, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 25, 2012 Originally Posted by madjack Great if everybody in the band uses them. Not so much for just one or two while others are on wedges, as it makes onstage communication more difficult. Just my personal opinion and observation. We'd like to fit everyone with them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Special J Posted November 25, 2012 Members Share Posted November 25, 2012 I love them both as a player and as an engineer, mostly for the same reasons. Less to carry, tightens up the band, and reduces stage volume. I agree with what's been said. You really do have to do it right in order to have a good experience with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heath_eld Posted November 25, 2012 Members Share Posted November 25, 2012 Originally Posted by fdew It is likely that they have lower stage volume BECAUSE they have IEMs. When we went to them we found that the acoustic instruments and those with there own speakers (In our case, the keyboard drum kit, and piano) went down in volume. Before IEMs each one would go louder in order to get more of me. With IEMs they don't need to so they don't. THey dont use any amps on stage - and that definitely keeps the volume down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tado921 Posted November 25, 2012 Members Share Posted November 25, 2012 In my five piece, the lead singer and I (backup vox, rhythm guitar) are on IEMs, and we use wedges for lead guitar and drums. The bass player doesn't have a wedge, he listens on the other two and I try to arrange them so that they both point in his direction. On the small stages we usually play this is plenty, and works well. I have a SL1602 and let the lead singer do his own monitor mix with his iPhone. We also convinced the lead guitar to go direct, so the only guitar amp on the stage is bass. Our stage volume is pretty low, so I never have feedback issues. So far, so good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted November 25, 2012 Members Share Posted November 25, 2012 Originally Posted by tado921 In my five piece, the lead singer and I (backup vox, rhythm guitar) are on IEMs, and we use wedges for lead guitar and drums. The bass player doesn't have a wedge, he listens on the other two and I try to arrange them so that they both point in his direction. On the small stages we usually play this is plenty, and works well. I have a SL1602 and let the lead singer do his own monitor mix with his iPhone. We also convinced the lead guitar to go direct, so the only guitar amp on the stage is bass. Our stage volume is pretty low, so I never have feedback issues. So far, so good. I actually haven't tried IEM's yet, but I kind of pieced together a wired system I am absolutely dying to try at our next gig. I posted this in the other IEM thread, but I did it kind of on the cheap and from all the research I did, I believe this may be an unbelievably good system for very low dollars. I purchased two each of the following to experiment with, one for me and one for my female vocalist:2 Rolls PM351 headphone amplifiers: http://www.amazon.com/Rolls-Personal...ds=rolls+pm3512 Mic Stand Mounts: http://www.amazon.com/Rolls-MSC106-S...ds=rolls+pm3512 Elite Core Bodypacks with 18' 1/4" to XLR for headphone extension: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...ls_o04_s00_i00I already own two pairs of Klipsch s4 noise cancelling ear buds, which sound awesome with MP3 players and will be good enough to try this out. If I like it, I can always upgrade myself to a really hot pair of earbuds and custom fitted inserts and she can do the same. But not counting the price of the buds, because I owned them already, but all told, EACH setup cost me a total of $117.47. I am probably going to borrow or rent a Brickwall limiter to use for a month or two until I finally get my Presonus 24 channel mixer which has one built in that I can apply to each of the aux sends. But from all the research I did, this should sound amazing.But to answer what tado927 said, one of the issues with my band is that we are a Grateful Dead cover band and the "Jerry" guitar (me) needs to be very loud in the mix and I need to hear it hot as well in my mix. So while I cannot get "my sound" going direct, what I can do is lower my amplifier a lot and get it away from everyone and put blankets in front of it to dampen it further because it will be mic'd. Then I can raise my volume in my own IEM and the FOH to be as loud as it needs to be and we can still have a nice, low stage volume. The bass player tends to be too loud, but he never has a wedge and doesn't want an IEM, so I can let him use my wedge and crank his bass into his monitor so he can lower down his amp while he gets all the bass he wants into his face.The drummer doesn't want an IEM either, but his monitor needs are very simple, so he can use the wedge the female vocalist was using for his monitor. Then, if this works out, I can snag a third setup for the rhythm guitarist who also sings, and we can give the keyboard a wedge if he doesn't want an IEM. But I fully expect this to get or stage volume even lower than it already is, and it is already pretty damned good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted November 25, 2012 Members Share Posted November 25, 2012 +1 for the Elite Core body packs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted November 25, 2012 Members Share Posted November 25, 2012 Originally Posted by dboomer +1 for the Elite Core body packs. I hear you, brother! But seriously, is it me or does the seriously low price of the IEM gear I patched together make one giddy? I mean, I am so used to thinking of IEM's as many hundreds of dollars, and perhaps into the thousands, for good quality systems, and that is per IEM station, not even the whole band. I am going to try this setup next weekend at an impromptu gig I booked and will report back on its efficacy. But from everything I have seen, I expect this low dollar "piece-together" to sound better than the wireless systems costing many times as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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