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Setting a realistic budget


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A friend of mine has a band "acoustic/folk type stuff" that is considering purchasing their own gear. He wanted to get a realistic number of what they should budget to get started.

Band consists of drums, bass (switches between guitar and upright), electric guitar, acoustic guitar, male lead vox, female lead vox, and one male bgv.

Most of the shows are less then 250, but they would also like to consider a system that can expand at a later date if they decide to go that route.

Again this is just to get a rough idea on numbers to see if this is right for them. Currently they are renting or using the house sound system.

What would they need:
mixer
couple of fx (decent reverb or more)
main speakers
3-4 monitors at most
3 vox mics, drum mics
misc wiring, stands, di boxes, flight cases, etc
snake

ANyway, again just looking for a starting point and then deciding if that is feasible.

Thanks for any suggestions

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Rought estimate: 10 k for great stuff 5 K for mid level pro stuff 2.5 K if you get Behringer (not suggested) and 1 k for bottom-of-the-barrel-crap-equipment-used. And these budget figures do not include trailer ransport.

Trying to find the point of the post? Just an estimate of what your budget should be? What is your budget or the bands budget?

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Quote Originally Posted by nchangin View Post
Rought estimate: 10 k for great stuff 5 K for mid level pro stuff 2.5 K if you get Behringer (not suggested) and 1 k for bottom-of-the-barrel-crap-equipment-used. And these budget figures do not include trailer ransport.

Trying to find the point of the post? Just an estimate of what your budget should be? What is your budget or the bands budget?
They just wanted to get a realistic number to start with. The band has saved a portion of the monies they have earned and they simply want to know if they should wait until they have enough for a decent system or if they can go for it now. They don't want bottom of the barrel so they are willing to wait. They just need a target.

Does that make more sense?
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Honestly, they could get a nice system for their needs and factoring in what their shows pay for a few of thousand dollars:

A pair of PRX612m's as tops could be had for around $1,400.00 if you shop around and get dealer price from some of the reputable dealers on this site. Try Mike Pyle.
A single PRX618XLF sub would nicely suit the needs of an acoustic band and can be had for around $1,000.00. Again, NOT off eBay or from Guitar Center or Ash, but from a good dealer willing to give you close to dealer price.

Then all you would need would a mixer, but you could get a nice Yamaha MG166CX or something comparable, which I know sounds really nice for needs like the OP's. That would be around $400.00

If mixing sound from the stage, then you won't need a stage snake, which will save you money. Then you only have to decide how much you would like to spend for cables, stands, mics, and monitors. I would say that for an acoustic folk band, why on Earth would you need 4 monitors? lol How loud are you guys playing? Get a couple of EV or QSC K8 monitors used off eBay. For what you are doing, you could probably snag a couple of even cheaper monitors, to be honest. Not that I would recommend this, but I have been using a pair of OLD JBL MR805 wedges, and for monitors, they sound amazing. They are absurdly bulky and heavy, though, but my point is that you can probably snag monitors off Craigslist that aren't up to the PRX or QSC stuff at a low price assuming you aren't cranking them to obscene volumes. Hell, you could get yourself a pair of the old JBL Eon speakers and use them as monitors. They sound fantastic, and I have seen them go for about $250.00 a piece or less on Caigslist.

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Honestly, they could get a nice system for their needs and factoring in what their shows pay for a few of thousand dollars:

A pair of PRX612m's as tops could be had for around $1,400.00 if you shop around and get dealer price from some of the reputable dealers on this site. Try Mike Pyle.
A single PRX618XLF sub would nicely suit the needs of an acoustic band and can be had for around $1,000.00. Again, NOT off eBay or from Guitar Center or Ash, but from a good dealer willing to give you close to dealer price.

Then all you would need would a mixer, but you could get a nice Yamaha MG166CX or something comparable, which I know sounds really nice for needs like the OP's. That would be around $400.00

If mixing sound from the stage, then you won't need a stage snake, which will save you money. Then you only have to decide how much you would like to spend for cables, stands, mics, and monitors. I would say that for an acoustic folk band, why on Earth would you need 4 monitors? lol How loud are you guys playing? Get a couple of EV or QSC K8 monitors used off eBay. For what you are doing, you could probably snag a couple of even cheaper monitors, to be honest. Not that I would recommend this, but I have been using a pair of OLD JBL MR805 wedges, and for monitors, they sound amazing. They are absurdly bulky and heavy, though, but my point is that you can probably snag monitors off Craigslist that aren't up to the PRX or QSC stuff at a low price assuming you aren't cranking them to obscene volumes. Hell, you could get yourself a pair of the old JBL Eon speakers and use them as monitors. They sound fantastic, and I have seen them go for about $250.00 a piece or less on Caigslist.

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One buget estimator... based on consistancy:

I'll offer that musicians generally tend to play instruments that are somewhere within their ability cost wise. Yes, this is a gross generalization, but it's probably an indicator of how seriously they take the whole affair, or at least is some insight into the level of capitalization they can justify... based on some sort of personal assessment. Therefore, I'll offer that a band stands a better chance of delivering a over-all good performance by taking a unified approach, which would likely include an investment in the production equipment somewhere on-par with their collective investment in personal instruments that they bring to the performance. IOW: Add it up... if the band is hauling $10K worth of personal instruments & backline gear to a show... probably somewhere on the order of $10K worth of production equipment would be justified.

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Quote Originally Posted by ChiroVette View Post
Honestly, they could get a nice system for their needs and factoring in what their shows pay for a few of thousand dollars:

A pair of PRX612m's as tops could be had for around $1,400.00 if you shop around and get dealer price from some of the reputable dealers on this site. Try Mike Pyle.
A single PRX618XLF sub would nicely suit the needs of an acoustic band and can be had for around $1,000.00. Again, NOT off eBay or from Guitar Center or Ash, but from a good dealer willing to give you close to dealer price.

Then all you would need would a mixer, but you could get a nice Yamaha MG166CX or something comparable, which I know sounds really nice for needs like the OP's. That would be around $400.00
If mixing sound from the stage, then you won't need a stage snake, which will save you money.
It will either be myself or someone else mixing from foh.

I would say that for an acoustic folk band, why on Earth would you need 4 monitors? lol How loud are you guys playing?
Its really not that they need 4, but at most 4. They can easily get away with 2.

Get a couple of EV or QSC K8 monitors used off eBay. For what you are doing, you could probably snag a couple of even cheaper monitors, to be honest. Not that I would recommend this, but I have been using a pair of OLD JBL MR805 wedges, and for monitors, they sound amazing. They are absurdly bulky and heavy, though, but my point is that you can probably snag monitors off Craigslist that aren't up to the PRX or QSC stuff at a low price assuming you aren't cranking them to obscene volumes. Hell, you could get yourself a pair of the old JBL Eon speakers and use them as monitors. They sound fantastic, and I have seen them go for about $250.00 a piece or less on Caigslist.
Thanks!

My thought was probably a Mixwiz, and RCF 312's or JBL PRX612's.
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Quote Originally Posted by W. M. Hellinger View Post
One buget estimator... based on consistancy:

I'll offer that musicians generally tend to play instruments that are somewhere within their ability cost wise. Yes, this is a gross generalization, but it's probably an indicator of how seriously they take the whole affair, or at least is some insight into the level of capitalization they can justify... based on some sort of personal assessment. Therefore, I'll offer that a band stands a better chance of delivering a over-all good performance by taking a unified approach, which would likely include an investment in the production equipment somewhere on-par with their collective investment in personal instruments that they bring to the performance. IOW: Add it up... if the band is hauling $10K worth of personal instruments & backline gear to a show... probably somewhere on the order of $10K worth of production equipment would be justified.

Good point. Thanks
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I haul, use and mostly need the same PA for my wife's "Celtic Folk Grass" band as I do for her Blues Rock band, except I only need one sub instead of two and I'm generally running it at a lower SPL.

I run three monitors on seperate mixes for the four members. They can and do get by with less when they have to, but having more mixes actually makes for a quieter stage as two of the four like their own instruments a LOT hotter than anyone else wants them and by having their own mix they don't have to have the other persons loud mix in with theirs.

Assuming these are good players using good instruments that want their PA to sound just as good as they do, then unless they already own all the mics, cables, stands, DIs, bags and cases needed to store and haul a full PA they will most likely wind up needing a budget more in the $10,000 range even if they start out in the $5000 range.

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Quote Originally Posted by lifeloverwg View Post
I haul, use and mostly need the same PA for my wife's "Celtic Folk Grass" band as I do for her Blues Rock band, except I only need one sub instead of two and I'm generally running it at a lower SPL.

I run three monitors on seperate mixes for the four members. They can and do get by with less when they have to, but having more mixes actually makes for a quieter stage as two of the four like their own instruments a LOT hotter than anyone else wants them and by having their own mix they don't have to have the other persons loud mix in with theirs.

Assuming these are good players using good instruments that want their PA to sound just as good as they do, then unless they already own all the mics, cables, stands, DIs, bags and cases needed to store and haul a full PA they will most likely wind up needing a budget more in the $10,000 range even if they start out in the $5000 range.
Thanks!
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Quote Originally Posted by agedhorse

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With the 635's, for acoustic music, there's no need for subs IMO and IME.

 

Which of course brings up the question.... 612M's with subs or 635's without subs? My thought was getting 4 or so of the 612M's and using two as mains, and the rest as floor wedges.
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Quote Originally Posted by agedhorse

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With the 635's, for acoustic music, there's no need for subs IMO and IME.

 

I was thinking the same thing, but then I realized he has a bass player and a drummer, so even with acoustic instruments, would he still not be better off, say with a pair of 612m's over one XLF sub?
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I was at a gig the other day with my "B" system, and the bass player asked me how much that system was. I was surprised when I started adding it up. Yorkville PM16, 2 x Yorkville elite 210's, 1 x Yorkville 720P, 2 x Yorkville NX84's, 1 x back up mixer, cables, mics and stands. Closing in on over $9,000 with tax.

So $10k doesn't seem unreasonable. Of course it can be done for less if buying used, or recently discounted stuff. Or if people already own a portion of the gear, like mics, cables stands....

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Quote Originally Posted by ChiroVette View Post
I was thinking the same thing, but then I realized he has a bass player and a drummer, so even with acoustic instruments, would he still not be better off, say with a pair of 612m's over one XLF sub?
It depends. Maybe.

With the 635's, I would not recommend a sub unless the LF levels required them. Generally, for most acoustic oriented events, the LF or the 635 is adequate.
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I'm in the $10,000 crowd. Two JBL PRX subs - two JBL PRX 12' tops - Allen heath Mix Whiz 16-2-III - cords - cables - some Shure SM 58B mics - stands - and extension cords - and poof - $ 10,000 is spent - AND - you walk into every gig knowing "everything gonna be alright".

Keep it simple.

Be true to yourself.

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You may want to consider skipping the floor monitors and going straight to In Ear Monitors.
This won't really change the initial budget much, but may be less in the long term by not paying for monitors twice: first using speakers, then again later when you switch to IEM's.

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Quote Originally Posted by stevemaude2 View Post
You may want to consider skipping the floor monitors and going straight to In Ear Monitors.
This won't really change the initial budget much, but may be less in the long term by not paying for monitors twice: first using speakers, then again later when you switch to IEM's.
Particularly if he goes wired and not wireless. I was blown away how good my "homemade" system sounded even with relatively low end buds like the Klipsch s4's.
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Not sure if this would help, but I am in the process of pricing out full PA setups for my new group. They asked for two options: 1) lowest price while still getting decent gear, and 2) something better than option one, just so they know the prices to do a comparison.

Option 1 was: 2 Yamaha SW118V subs, 2 Yamaha S115V tops, four of the Loudspeakers+ monitors, 2 Peavey IPR1600 amps (one for monitors and one for mains/subs), one of the Shure Mic 6 packs that comes with the carrying case, Audix D6 for a kick drum mic, a pair of the Audiopile overheads for the drums, Soundcraft MFXi12+2 board, and associated stands and cables. Price came out to $4,900 without buying used gear.

Option 2 was: 2 JBL PRX612m tops, 1 618xlf sub, four of the Loudspeakers+ monitors with an IPR1600 to push them, one of the Shure Mic 6 packs with the carrying case that you find at guitar center, Audix D6 for a kick mic, a pair of the Audiopile overheads for the drums, Studiolive 16.0.2 board, 12x4 snake from audiopile, and associated stands and cables. Price came out to $6,500 without buying used gear.

I created a spreadsheet with all of the prices to get the above numbers. We are leaning towards option 2 since it only costs a bit more, but option one would easily fit your group if your budget was tight.

We are a five piece traveling praise and worship band (2 electrics, bass, drums, 3 vocals, and keyboardist with 2 boards). So our volume needs are not as great as some of the other posters. Also, since Agedhorse mentioned the two PRX635 would work without a sub for some (but not all) situations, I might present that option to the band.

ETA: Just priced out 2 of the PRX635 for mains and they are the exact same price as 2 Yamaha SW118V subs, 2 S115V tops, and an IPR1600. The weight and size difference would be huge. Any chance the 635 will put out the same amount (or more) bass than 2 SW118V with 265 watts going to each? If so, it would be a no brainer to go with those over the Yamaha setup I listed above.

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I'm in the $10,000 crowd. Two JBL PRX subs - two JBL PRX 12' tops - Allen heath Mix Whiz 16-2-III - cords - cables - some Shure SM 58B mics - stands - and extension cords - and poof - $ 10,000 is spent - AND - you walk into every gig knowing "everything gonna be alright".


Keep it simple.


Be true to yourself.

 

 

LOL - I forgot to list out getting some monitors. But I think you could get 2 or 3 and still make the 10 grand figure. I like using whatever I am using for "top" boxes for "monitors" too (getting all the same - just more of them) - for the value of redundancy - in case "something" goes wrong.

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You'd want an IPR3000 for your mains/monitors. I think you'll find the second option (with the option one mixer) not much more $$$ and a much nicer system, especially when you can afford the second sub someday. BTW I have a pair of the loudspeaker+ monitors and they are great - they were designed by Ramsdell Pro Audio. Also consider a Mackie DL1608 mixer :) .

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LOL - I forgot to list out getting some monitors. But I think you could get 2 or 3 and still make the 10 grand figure. I like using whatever I am using for "top" boxes for "monitors" too (getting all the same - just more of them) - for the value of redundancy - in case "something" goes wrong.

 

Also, keep in mind that there are many dealers you can order who will give you very close to dealer price and the JBL (or other gear) will be drop-shipped to you from the factory. You could, for instance, get the PRX612m's for around $650.00 brand new even though they are $800.00 cabinets and the 618XLF ($1,200.00 cabs) for around $975.00. So once you factor in deep discounts from reputable guys like Mike Pyle, Northern Sound and Light, Arch City AV, and others, you can easily come in under ten grand for pretty stellar gear. ;)

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FWIW, I think that the 12" over subs route is the easiest way to build a scalable system, especially if outdoor events are a consideration. I have chosen the PRX612m over PRX618sxlf route myself. Based on my "start with nothing, have to buy it all" experience, I think that about $5k is the low end of that budget (for buying new gear), and $10k being more realistic (but not absolutely necessary). Mark C.

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FWIW, I think that the 12" over subs route is the easiest way to build a scalable system, especially if outdoor events are a consideration. I have chosen the PRX612m over PRX618sxlf route myself. Based on my "start with nothing, have to buy it all" experience, I think that about $5k is the low end of that budget (for buying new gear), and $10k being more realistic (but not absolutely necessary). Mark C.

 

Also, what I like about this idea is that you don't have to go nuts to start off with to have a system that can be built and scaled.

 

So let's say you or the OP has decent monitor wedges. I am in that situation. I have a pair of JBL MR805's I power with a Crown Powerbase II amp and they sound pretty damned good. I also recently did wired IEM's on the cheap and I am setting it up for four of the musicians on stage, leaving the bass and drummer (who don't want IEM's) to each get an MR805 wedge for their own mix. Now my original plan to upgrade a little after the new year was to buy two PRX612m's as tops and 2 or 3 for monitor wedges. Now I don't have to do that. I can simply buy my 2 tops to put over a pair of XLF subs. Now in my case, I really want four 612m's so I could double up on the tops. But the point is that I don't need to have 4.

 

Since I have the MR805's and the inexpensive wired IEM's, let's say for some reason I end up short of cash when I buy. Well, I could simply snag two 612m's and ONE XLF sub. Now only one sub is obviously not ideal, but I could (or the OP could) add to it later when there is more money available, right? Like you said, a scalable system that you can just keep adding to rather than having to "replace when you have money."

 

I think you would agree that a pair of 612m's to start with (instead of 5 of them) and one XLF sub (instead of 2) while not being ideal, is a great starting point. Additionally, I am also buying a Presonus 24 channel mixer, BUT say money was more tight? Well, with a pair of 612m's over one XLF sub, I could easily hold off on a new mixer and use my old Soundcraft Rac Pac with no worries. So I could, in my position, have a pretty damned decent system with a combination of what I already have plus nothing more than a pair of 612's and one XLF and I could add components at my leisure, say over the course of six months to a year.

 

This is not the route I am going, but I just wanted to make a point that this is a viable approach. Building a system slowly that you won't have to replace so much as add to. ;)

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