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  • DXR 12 or 15 w/Subs for mains

    I've read through the content here on these speakers and after hearing them last night at GC am going to pick up a pair.

    We currently have some budget Peavey 2x15+HF mud machines as mains, so we are really looking forward to the change. Running two 18" subs underneath.



    I've read enough to understand that mains with 15s are not friendly to clarity and vocals cutting through. But my concern is that the 12s on top won't give us the power/punch that we want.



    We're a rock / mashup / absurd 90s rap song band. PA carrys the full band - 2 guitars, keys, some bass, kick, snare... sometimes the full kit depending on how we're feeling. And vox, of course.



    At $650, the 12s are much more what I'm allowing myself to lust after.



    We recently played a few gigs at the pro football stadium here in town before a game and they ran subs and 12s on top. Sounded fantastic and full. So I'm thinking we'll be good. But need input. 12 or 15?



    Help me spend my hard earned $$$. :-)
    Wampler SLOstortion- $175 shipped

  • #2
    12's over subs is a good combination. I would recommend sticking with the dxr for both tops and subs
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/Fender Musical Instruments Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

    Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

    Comment


    • #3
      I'd have to agree with aged. I have a pair of the 12's and considered the 15's which do have a bit better low end but decided that if/when we need that low end putting the 12's over sub(s) would be a far better solution. That said, I'm not sure the 15's are really that un-"friendly to clarity and vocals cutting through" but I can attest that the 12's are absolutely outstanding in that regard.
      ...dave

      Comment


      • #4
        I've seen other people say this too but I don't understand how 15s would be unfriendly to vocal clarity compared to 12s. Don't 15s generally have bigger horns and tweeters? Seems to me that the 15s would be just as good as 12s for vocals but with the bigger woofers they would be a little stronger in the low mids, which might be attenuated a bit with 12s. Then again, that's just what makes sense to me. I've found that sometimes what seems to make sense in theory doesn't always work that way in practice.
        Current gear:
        A whole bunch of stuff!

        Hear me play at my Soundclick music page. Here.

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        • #5
          I have never heard the DXS subs (they make them in 12" and 15"). Looking at the specs they appear to be very punchy around 70Hz : http://usa.yamaha.com/products/live_...es#tab=feature



          Neither the tops or the bottoms have a real cross-over, but rather each has its own filter (LPF for the sub and HPF for the tops) which you are expected to match (ie if you set the sub LPF to 100Hz, then you need to set the HPF on the tops to 100Hz). This effectively gives you a cross-over



          Both the DXR12 and DXR15 have only options for 100Hz and 120Hz for the HPF. IMHO a 12" speaker can do just as much at 100Hz as a 15" speaker can and generally has better vocal clarity.



          The reason for this is that the 12" speaker can produce higher frequencies better making the overlap easier to design to the HF Horn. Most people say that the vocals sound clearer with 12's over subs rather than 15's over subs.



          Personally, I am surprised that the 15" DXR's don't have an 80Hz HPF (since the DXS's have a LPF at 80Hz).



          So here is my thought.....



          If you have your own cross-over and can put more of the LF to the tops (say around 80Hz) the 15" will give you a thumpier mix than the 12's will. If you don't do this, then the vocal clarity will be better with 12" over subs, and it won't matter which one you use with regards to how thumpy the mix is since both tops will adequately handle the 100Hz and above frequencies equally well.



          I am always surprised how much "punch" comes from my DSR112 tops (using the 90Hz cross-over built into my PRX618S-XLF subs).



          What subs are you currently using, and how are you setting up the cross-over? Do you plan on getting new subs?
          With Greater Knowledge Comes Greater Understanding

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          • #6
            I have JBL PRX612m and PRX615m tops, with PRX618sxlf subs. Based upon listening to both combinations, the 12" over subs sounded a little "sweeter", and more pleasing to my ears. (I was using familiar recorded music of various styles for purposes of evaluation.) Without subs, the 15" sounded fuller, as you would expect with the additional low end. If the music requires subs, I will recommend that my client use the 12" tops. YMMV. Mark C.
            "Good tools are expensive. Cheap tools are damned expensive."

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            • #7
              It seems to me that if you want kick in the mix, no 15" stand alone cabinet is going to deliver. If it adds some low frequency response, it's going to be nill next to what dedicated subs will give you. Especially after reinforcing the whole band. If you want the low frequencies to be reproduced anywhere close to the higher spectrum, you need subs, no matter how you slice it (in many rooms even 18" subs will have trouble producing the SPL the horns are capable of). Buy the 12"s and they're cheaper, smaller, lighter and just may sound better. I don't see any reason to by 15" cabinets.

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              • #8
                Thank you, all.

                We are going to go with the 12s. Size, weight, cash, your input... All these reasons.

                We do have a crossover in the rack, but I was hoping to just tap into the filter on the Yamahas. Do more w less.

                The subs are 18" Eminence drivers in Behringer bx1800 cabs in series & driven by a Mackie 1400i. Which works well when not overheating...

                Usually run them x.over at 120hz or thereabout.
                Wampler SLOstortion- $175 shipped

                Comment


                • #9






                  Quote Originally Posted by guitarman3001
                  View Post

                  I've seen other people say this too but I don't understand how 15s would be unfriendly to vocal clarity compared to 12s. Don't 15s generally have bigger horns and tweeters? Seems to me that the 15s would be just as good as 12s for vocals but with the bigger woofers they would be a little stronger in the low mids, which might be attenuated a bit with 12s. Then again, that's just what makes sense to me. I've found that sometimes what seems to make sense in theory doesn't always work that way in practice.




                  Generally (very generally) 12'" give better high freq. response than 15"s. Matched with a sub (as the OP states), this provides for a pretty effective combination PROVIDING that all components concerned are high quality and run correctly. IME (limited as it is) there are seldom differences between the HFD's in a 12" 2-way and a 15" 2-way. Many times it's the same HFD's with (perhaps) a higher rated passive X-over. As many different approaches as there are speaker makers.

                  Comment


                  • #10






                    Quote Originally Posted by agedhorse
                    View Post

                    12's over subs is a good combination. I would recommend sticking with the dxr for both tops and subs




                    Do you prefer the DXR12/DXS15 top/sub combination to using another brand sub like a Yorkville LS720P or a JBL PRX618XLF with a HPF on the tops? The DXS15 subs are bandpass, very peaky and heavier than either of those, and would seem less versatile for use with other tops.

                    Comment


                    • #11






                      Quote Originally Posted by undercool
                      View Post

                      Thank you, all.

                      We are going to go with the 12s. Size, weight, cash, your input... All these reasons.

                      We do have a crossover in the rack, but I was hoping to just tap into the filter on the Yamahas. Do more w less.

                      The subs are 18" Eminence drivers in Behringer bx1800 cabs in series & driven by a Mackie 1400i. Which works well when not overheating...

                      Usually run them x.over at 120hz or thereabout.




                      Size, weight and cost are all good reasons, and the 12's over subs will do just as well or better than most 15's over subs.



                      Are you bridging the sub amp? That would be the most likely cause of the overheating (amp does not do well on sub duty if driven really hard into 4 ohms bridged). Also, you are most likely paralleling your subs, not series.
                      -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      Former product development engineer: Genz Benz, a KMC Music/Fender Musical Instruments Company, continuing factory level product support and service for Genz Benz

                      Currently product development engineer: Mesa Boogie

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I go with 15s for a few reasons. I have my subs in the center of the stage in front most of the time. The 15 lets me overlap the crossover point. Have the sub go up to 90hz. The tops go down to 75hz. Doing this the overall mix is fuller with the subs centered. If I only used my tops sitting on my subs then I guess I could use 12s. Not that 12s won't go down to 75 hz. I like the surface area a 15 has better. I also like having a 15 for a multi purpose cabinet. Great for different type or style of band. Do a Bluegrass show on a Friday night without subs. Full on Rock show Saturday with subs.

                        In general a 15 box is tuned lower.(DXR12 listed as a 52hz low response box,DXR15 as 49) A 15 inch woofer "in general" has a larger voice coil. (DXR 12/15 are the same 2.5 inch) A 15 inch woofer has more surface area which gives a higher spl all other things being equal. The DXR15 is 1 db louder than the 12. Not a big difference but that is part of it.

                        Looking down the road as your band grows having 15's to move to floor monitors,side fills, drum monitors, a 15 box would be handy to have. Yes its $100 more a box. But looking ahead it may be money well spent.



                        Dookietwo

                        Comment


                        • #13






                          Quote Originally Posted by undercool
                          View Post

                          Thank you, all.

                          We are going to go with the 12s. Size, weight, cash, your input... All these reasons.

                          We do have a crossover in the rack, but I was hoping to just tap into the filter on the Yamahas. Do more w less.

                          The subs are 18" Eminence drivers in Behringer bx1800 cabs in series & driven by a Mackie 1400i. Which works well when not overheating...

                          Usually run them x.over at 120hz or thereabout.




                          I would keep the x-over, but set it to around 90-100Hz (use your ears to decide what you like better). Keep in mind that the more LF you send up to the DXR12's the sooner you will hit clip and run out of steam on top.



                          The filter on the DXR12's will only keep the LF out of the tops, it will not keep the HF out of the subs (thus why you need the x-over).



                          If you want (and know how to do it), you could use the filter on the DXR12, and only send the x-over to the sub amp (where you would want to set it at ~100Hz).



                          You have 2 choices as I see it:

                          1. Use x-over for the sub and send full range to the tops with the top filter engaged

                          2. Use x-over for sub and tops and leave the filter on the tops disengaged



                          If you overlap frequencies, you will get cancellation issues as the two speakers fight each other on the same frequency range.
                          With Greater Knowledge Comes Greater Understanding

                          Comment


                          • #14






                            Quote Originally Posted by OneEng
                            View Post



                            If you overlap frequencies, you will get cancellation issues as the two speakers fight each other on the same frequency range.




                            If not set up correctly you will. If setup right you won't.

                            Crossovers are designed to have the drivers still producing the same freq. just at a lower level in the crossover area as their slopes roll off.







                            A crossover set at 100 hz with a (L/R) filter will still give you 100hz but the output is down 6dbs in the sub and in the tops as well. If the sub and top are in good phase alignment and in general are closer than 1/4 wavelength they will combine and you'll get a 6 db increase at the crossover point. This gives a flat response through the crossover area. There are many speaker companies that use both underlapped or overlapped crossover filters to get the best response in the crossover area.

                            You may have a sub that is very good in the 100hz range and a slope that is 6dbs down in the electronic realm will not give a 6 db drop at 100hz in accoustic output. So you would set the sub to 90 or 80 hz and have the top still at 100hz to get a smooth response at the crossover point. This is a underlapped crossover point.

                            Or you may have a top that is not good below 120 hz or so. A slope that is 6dbs down at 100hz will make more than a 6db drop at 100hz in its accoustic output. You would set the tops freq. at 70hz and still have a smooth response now at 100hz for an even response between it and the sub. This of course would be a overlapped crossover point.

                            When selecting a crossover point you need to consider the accoustic output of the driver at a given freq. The best type and slope of a filter to use. The phase response of the box itself and the electronic crossovers. Plus how the speakers will be placed in relation to each other as in distance apart, forward and back , to see if delay is needed to get them in good phase alignment.

                            No real golden rules when it comes to crossovers.



                            Dookietwo

                            Comment


                            • #15






                              Quote Originally Posted by Dookietwo
                              View Post

                              If not set up correctly you will. If setup right you won't.

                              Crossovers are designed to have the drivers still producing the same freq. just at a lower level in the crossover area as their slopes roll off.







                              A crossover set at 100 hz with a (L/R) filter will still give you 100hz but the output is down 6dbs in the sub and in the tops as well. If the sub and top are in good phase alignment and in general are closer than 1/4 wavelength they will combine and you'll get a 6 db increase at the crossover point. This gives a flat response through the crossover area. There are many speaker companies that use both underlapped or overlapped crossover filters to get the best response in the crossover area.

                              You may have a sub that is very good in the 100hz range and a slope that is 6dbs down in the electronic realm will not give a 6 db drop at 100hz in accoustic output. So you would set the sub to 90 or 80 hz and have the top still at 100hz to get a smooth response at the crossover point. This is a underlapped crossover point.

                              Or you may have a top that is not good below 120 hz or so. A slope that is 6dbs down at 100hz will make more than a 6db drop at 100hz in its accoustic output. You would set the tops freq. at 70hz and still have a smooth response now at 100hz for an even response between it and the sub. This of course would be a overlapped crossover point.

                              When selecting a crossover point you need to consider the accoustic output of the driver at a given freq. The best type and slope of a filter to use. The phase response of the box itself and the electronic crossovers. Plus how the speakers will be placed in relation to each other as in distance apart, forward and back , to see if delay is needed to get them in good phase alignment.

                              No real golden rules when it comes to crossovers.



                              Dookietwo




                              Hmmm.



                              It seems to me that overlapping the frequencies would cause more harm than good. You are correct that the cross-over frequency does not simply cut off everything else, but rather the cross-over point is where the cross-over has already lowered the output of that frequency by 10db (I thought). The slope of the cross-over (if adjustable) determines how rapidly the frequency drops off (typically 20db/decade to 40db/decade)
                              With Greater Knowledge Comes Greater Understanding

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