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car audio - it aint no pro audio

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  • #31
    boy don't miss the days of car audio. When I did do car audio in high school I diddled with many a pair of 6 x 9's for my 1978 plymouth valarie with a hillside hemi we called it (slant 6) and found the 60 dollar kenwoods were the best (mounted in back of vehicle) speakers and I would replace them once a year through best buy under warranty (there were used a LOT). The dash speakers you are using have no enclosure whatsoever sound goes everywhere and it does not work, speakers need some form of enclosure I've found to work at all in car audio. Hope that mounting them in the door works for you! I gave up on car audio long ago, all you do is spend money and it never lasts. I think if you mount a decent pair of 6 x 9's in the back with a sub probably going to get what you need, if that's a 4 channel deck you could do a pair of 6's in doors but the door speaks always seem to suck, had much better luck with 6 x 9's. As far as the yamaha clubs if you mount them would love to see pics or any pa speaker you put in there. This is all too funny your post made me laugh.

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    • #32
      OEM audio systems have progressed to a point that after-market systems have lost a lot of their appeal. Many of these systems are now so intigrated into the vehicle, that they are no longer referred to as "Audio System" but as "Infotainment Systems". The after-market is targetting the boom-boom crowd almost exclusively as that is who is buying those systems now. Accurate high-fidelity is in the OEM domain now-a-days.



      The automotive environment sucks. Accoutically you would think that since you have a defined space, it should be easy, but it isn't. Nothing about the vehicle interior is condusive to quality audio. As I've mentioned in previous posts, I have been designing amplifiers for a major premium OEM for almost 20 years now. I can tell you there is some serious processing going on to tune a system properly, from the electronics side. And the mechanical and enclosure aspect is no less regorous.



      There are a lot of quality after-market head units out there. But speakers are a different story. There are components available that can work in an infinate baffle, but that comes with a LOT of sonic compromize. A properly tuned enclosure can help reduce the need for extensive processing (but not eliminate it).



      Adding a quality EQ can go a long way to helping. But do not tune it with a pro-audio mind set. You will need to be far more aggressive than that. And pay particular attention to the phase response. You would be amazed at how much energy is completely wasted to cancellations.
      Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. -Will Rogershttp://facebook.com/SpitShineRocks

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      • #33
        OEM audio systems have progressed to a point that after-market systems have lost a lot of their appeal. Many of these systems are now so intigrated into the vehicle, that they are no longer referred to as "Audio System" but as "Infotainment Systems". The after-market is targetting the boom-boom crowd almost exclusively as that is who is buying those systems now. Accurate high-fidelity is in the OEM domain now-a-days.



        The automotive environment sucks. Accoutically you would think that since you have a defined space, it should be easy, but it isn't. Nothing about the vehicle interior is condusive to quality audio. As I've mentioned in previous posts, I have been designing amplifiers for a major premium OEM for almost 20 years now. I can tell you there is some serious processing going on to tune a system properly, from the electronics side. And the mechanical and enclosure aspect is no less regorous.



        There are a lot of quality after-market head units out there. But speakers are a different story. There are components available that can work in an infinate baffle, but that comes with a LOT of sonic compromize. A properly tuned enclosure can help reduce the need for extensive processing (but not eliminate it).



        Adding a quality EQ can go a long way to helping. But do not tune it with a pro-audio mind set. You will need to be far more aggressive than that. And pay particular attention to the phase response. You would be amazed at how much energy is completely wasted to cancellations.
        Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. -Will Rogershttp://facebook.com/SpitShineRocks

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        • #34
          ^ kinda like designing a cab where you have no control over the shape or size and it has to sound good on the inside, not the outside .

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          • #35
            ^ kinda like designing a cab where you have no control over the shape or size and it has to sound good on the inside, not the outside .

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            • #36
              Looking at the pictures, I'll suggest (ahead of the concerns with the sound system): If not already equipped with such, consider replacing at least the driver's seat with an Astro seat that has arm rests.

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              • #37
                Looking at the pictures, I'll suggest (ahead of the concerns with the sound system): If not already equipped with such, consider replacing at least the driver's seat with an Astro seat that has arm rests.

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                • #38
                  how come mark? are they comfy on long trips?
                  band status - "its complicated"

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                  • #39
                    how come mark? are they comfy on long trips?
                    band status - "its complicated"

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                    • #40
                      I think your first assesment was correct. Car audio sucks. I'd also agree with the idea that an auto interior isn't in any way designed for acoustic excellence (I think it's real hit or miss). From what I understand, most auto speakers are designed for an infinite baffle (in other words no real air dampening from behind and a large (of course not infiite :-) baffle such as a door or your dash. I doubt that much thought is put into most auto speaker designs because the manufacturer can't tell how or where they will be mounted. Just because they sounded good in the display mount, will they sound good in your car? Who knows?



                      You mentioned that they were shaking your steering wheel but had no bass response. I almost hate to bring this up (because I'm sure you know better) but could they be out of phase (polarity). Either by your doing or the manufacturer's. I know I've seen walkmans that had the channel polarity purposfuly flipped because it gives you a nice wide sounding stereo field (with ear buds). Put the same chanels through speakers and of course the bottom cancels it's self out. Got a phase checker?



                      I'm with Mark. If I'm not mixing, I'd rather listen to how well my car's running or the music of nature (but that's just me).



                      I hope you get it worked out.
                      J.R. Previously jrble

                      See my Dog Of The Hair studio at: http://www.dogoth.com/studio/

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                      • #41
                        I had an '87 RX7 Turbo with a failing OEM stereo. So I decided to replace both the FM/CD/Cassette unit and the speakers. I managed to fit the stereo unit into the dash opening without too much trouble. The rear speakers were mounted on the top of the shock towers behind the seats, pointing up. I measured them at around 6" and bought a pair of Alpine 2 way speakers. Once opened up, I found out that it wasn't just a speaker in there, it was an enclosure containing both a speaker and it's amplifier. That made wiring an adventure. I made an adapter plate to fit the speaker to the enclosure, figured out which of the several wires I could use (didn't want to connect to something with power in it) and eventually got everything hooked up. It sounded terrible, if anything, worse than the trashed OEM system. Lots of work for a crappy result. Good thing the car was so noisy inside, I could barely hear it.



                        My Mercedes C230 has a terrific stereo in it, excellent sound. Hope it never fails, I'd replace the car before trying to fix the stereo.
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                        • #42
                          My car came with a factory-installed Bose system. It actually sounds really good. I need to build a new box for my subwoofers and run the wiring... maybe in the spring.



                          For your dash speakers, maybe you could hack away at the material the speaker mounts to and fashion some sort of box to put in there? I did something similar with my friends' GMC truck. Also, I'd recommend coax speakers to put in your dash, instead of the separate mid/tweeter deal you're using now.



                          If you're going to put some speakers in the doors, maybe you could cut a hole for the speaker and use expanding foam to seal up an "enclosure" inside the door. It'll also help with vibration and maintain some of the door's structure. I'd also line the cavity with some MLV and maybe make a bracket/spacer to mount the speaker on so the magnet isn't touching the outside of the door.



                          The easiest way to do it, though, would be to just get some 6x9" coax drivers and build a couple of cheap boxes to put them in. You could even mount them to the roof of the van, behind your seats.

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                          • #43
                            Shame you can't mount some sort of cans under the dash speakers (like ceiling speakers have.) I haven't installed car audio in anything I owned for the last 30 years. Returns were not worth the effort. I live with what my vehicles come with, although that does enter into the selection process.

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                            • #44






                              Quote Originally Posted by Coaster
                              View Post

                              how come mark? are they comfy on long trips?




                              IMO: Must have item, because yes... arm rests are way comfy on long trips... due to offering a place to rest your elbows and take the weight of your arms off your shoulders.

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                              • #45
                                First of all, tear everything outta there, and PROVE THEY WORK.



                                Put those in-question speakers into cardboard boxes, and test them. They should sound relatively normal, to prove whether the drivers are blown or damaged in some way. (Actually, you'd be surprised how good a set of car audio speakers can sound when using cardboard boxes as cabinets! My garage has a pair of Kenwood 6x9 speakers hooked to an old stereo, and they ain't too shabby. Ain't hi-fi either, though! Heh heh)



                                You said you did a lot of custom-mounting to make that stereo head unit fit in your dashboard. You should unmount it, and wire it up loose, to prove both the stereo, and the speakers in cardboard boxes, work on their own. This will eliminate wiring, wiring harnesses, and body/chassis grounding issues.
                                "Understanding that sentence meant he wasn't much of a chess player." - Abzurd

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