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Best style sub for low end punch, front loaded vs folded vs....

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  • #16
    But your right about stage volume being a factor.

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    • #17

      Alien Radio wrote:
      Was just wondering on opinions on what style/type of sub do you think gives the best punch, front loaded vs folded horn, vs manifold or......... Play mostly medium sized venues, the subs that I have now are are falling short of what I'd like to have.

      Firstly, define punch. As a rule, front loaded speakers will give you deeper bass but are less efficient, Horn loaded speakers will give you more volume per watt but are limited by the size of the box as to how low of a freq they will reproduce before "unloading" (and allowing the speaker to beat it's self to death).

      I'm no speaker designer and there are some fellows here who can give you much better specifics but I believe (and I'll for sure be corrected if I'm wrong ;-) that the longer the horn path is, the deeper the bass it will reproduce.

      Years ago a friend made some folded horn speakers that were relativly flat down to 30hz BUT they were roughly 5' H X 9' W X 8' D. They came with their own semi trailer to haul them around. Just a few hundred watts could rattle your teeth. That didn't matter because they were impractical.

      With modern power amps becoming more powerful and efficient (current draw from the wall), the trend is toward front loaded boxes (speaker efficiency is less important - not unimportant - just less so). Any time you have a horn involved to increase efficiency, due to internal reflections inside the horn you get a less acurate reproduction of the original wave form. Front loaded speakers are smaller and easier to move around as well. Also speaker technology has made for higher power handling (higher flux magnets, better VC's and better heat dissipation) and somewhat better efficiency per driver.

      That's my .02

      J.R. Previously jrble

      See my Dog Of The Hair studio at: http://www.dogoth.com/studio/

      Quote from someone: Flat response? Get out the jack and change the tire.

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      • mshifflett
        mshifflett commented
        Editing a comment

        JRBLE is right, front loaded are much less efficient.  And also correct about size of folded horn designs.  Although we currently have 8 LAB subs (folded horn) and they go down to 30Hz but aren't quite as large as his example.  They are 45" tall and deep, and 22.5" wide with two 12" drivers.  We have no problem getting more than enough punch out of them.  We had used many different front-loaded designs prior to that, including EAW SB series, and were much happier after building the LAB's.  Keep in mind though that they are better when used grouped together than a single sub by itself so this may not be the best option for the OP.  We mostly use them for outdoor events, as we have a small powered rig for more intimate indoor stuff.

        If it were me I would be looking for a more robust powered cabinet to take the place of what they already have, just as others have noted.


    • #18
      I guess the best way I can define what I'm calling "punch" a quick hard response to the kick drum with minimal over ring and if I can pull it off have you ever stood in front of subs and just the air and sound hit you? I understand that other things come into play with that as well (power/ +comp/limiter/gate) but I also wonder if certain cabinets or manufacturers are better for that than others. I just know what I have now or my ill way of utilizing it, is my weak link and I'm trying to get a fuller sound, and what I call "punch" would be great but if not def fuller, at some of the venues we play the kick is buried because I just cant get it loud enough. I am going to try the setup suggestions made this weekend to see if I can gain some, because honestly on the past I have only been able to push them to a certain point and back off a little due to overpowering them. Thanks jrble for your input, what you said on the cabinet design is something to def think about.

      Comment


      • mshifflett
        mshifflett commented
        Editing a comment

        Besides processing of the kick, other things to take in to consideration would be the microphone you are using, the position of the microphone, the quality and tuning of the drum and even the playing style of the drummer.  It all matters in the end.


      • abzurd
        abzurd commented
        Editing a comment

        Alien Radio wrote:
        I guess the best way I can define what I'm calling "punch" a quick hard response to the kick drum with minimal over ring and if I can pull it off have you ever stood in front of subs and just the air and sound hit you? I understand that other things come into play with that as well (power/ +comp/limiter/gate) but I also wonder if certain cabinets or manufacturers are better for that than others. I just know what I have now or my ill way of utilizing it, is my weak link and I'm trying to get a fuller sound, and what I call "punch" would be great but if not def fuller, at some of the venues we play the kick is buried because I just cant get it loud enough. I am going to try the setup suggestions made this weekend to see if I can gain some, because honestly on the past I have only been able to push them to a certain point and back off a little due to overpowering them. Thanks jrble for your input, what you said on the cabinet design is something to def think about.

         

        Before trying to reinvent the sound with a new sub. Make sure you've played around with microphone placement and have a well tuned kick drum. That could very well make more difference than changing subs, especially if the overall SPL is working for you.


    • #19
      Audix D6 now had a Cad before, while on the kick insert I do have a dbx 166xl and a 31 band eq which is overkill sense I'm only using certain frequencies. I haven't had a chance to readjust how I gave the eq set since we upgraded mic's. the mic is postion just inside the the front head through the hole, the drummer also bought a plastic ring that firs inserts onto the hole that is suppose to gain us a little. I will mess with the eq settings next week when we have practice again, but still feel like maybe something that has more power capacity would help with just getting it where it can be heard, but I agree that the "sound" needs to be honed. I've been trying to talk the drummer into getting a sure beta 91 to sit inside the drums and run s second channel into the mains. Which this I'm sure that I should have mentioned before, he wont let me put him through the mains now, so the subs for kick is all I have. Oh he does use good heads though.

      Comment


      • Mutha Goose
        Mutha Goose commented
        Editing a comment

        A D6 is very capable of giving you that modern kick sound.

        I would caution you against placing the mic element right at the outer-head boundry. There is a lot of air turbulence at that node. I would suggest either placing the mic element completely in the drum, or just out of it. I've seen a lot of debate on this point, but I prefer the mic to be just inside the front head.

        Aim the mic directly at the beater.

        To get that punch you need a small bump in the area of 300-400Hz (this will be the body and much of the punch), and another slightly larger bump an order of magnitude higher at around 3-4Khz (this will be the "click" or "impulse" that sets up the punch). The exact EQ location is a function of your drum tuning. IME, if you cannot find the sweet spots in these areas, it is because the head is not properly tuned (find the sweet spot in this area does not mean that the drum is properly tuned).

        Experiment with the mic placement and EQ.You should find sweet spots.

        This should get you as far as your current boxes will allow.


      • InACanProductions
        InACanProductions commented
        Editing a comment

        Alien Radio wrote:
        Audix D6 now had a Cad before, while on the kick insert I do have a dbx 166xl and a 31 band eq which is overkill sense I'm only using certain frequencies. I haven't had a chance to readjust how I gave the eq set since we upgraded mic's. the mic is position just inside the the front head through the hole, the drummer also bought a plastic ring that firs inserts onto the hole that is suppose to gain us a little. I will mess with the eq settings next week when we have practice again, but still feel like maybe something that has more power capacity would help with just getting it where it can be heard, but I agree that the "sound" needs to be honed. I've been trying to talk the drummer into getting a sure beta 91 to sit inside the drums and run s second channel into the mains. Which this I'm sure that I should have mentioned before, he wont let me put him through the mains now, so the subs for kick is all I have. Oh he does use good heads though.

        Why the 31 band graphic EQ? What are you doing with the channel strip EQ?  In an earlier post in this thread IIRC you mentioned using the low cut on the amp, and cutting on the graphic.  I'd venture a guess that the graphic isn't set in a way that is helping you achieve the sound you are looking for.  Are you boosting something with your channel EQ only to be cutting an overlapping freq with the graphic?  Are you boosting or cutting a lot of frequency bands right next to eachother on the graphic that could be causing phasing issues.  Take the graphic out of the chain first and see if anything improves.

        What are you using the 166XL for?  Compressing?  Gating?  Maybe to get rid of some of the ring you can use the gate on that 166 so it cuts off the ringing.  Are you hitting the compressor hard and fast and squashing the transient?  Are you hitting the limiter?  Where is the output gain set?

        How does it sound when you take everything out of the insert?  I'd go back to basics and start with the dry mic signal, then EQ using the channel strip to taste, then if it needs it add the compressor/gate, and leave out the graphic EQ.  Starting over from scratch with the source (kick drum tuning and mic placement as others have mentioned), and then setting proper gain structure, then setting your channel EQ and then if necessary insert the Dynamics processing.  Doing this first is a lot less expensive then getting new subs, and may uncover why you aren't getting the sound you're looking for with the subs you currently have.  If you don't do this, you could end up paying for new subs that still don't solve the problem.  When troubleshooting, start at the beginning.  That's why when ever you call tech support for a product the first thing they ask you is, "is the unit plugged in and turned on?"  You might think when they ask that, that the tech must think you're a moron, but you'd be surprised how many Tech Support calls end with that single question.  When I get calls at 8am on a Saturday from the local rec center where I'm the in house tech guy asking, why can't we hear the iPod through the PA, my first question is always, is the mixer turned on, followed by, are the speakers turned on, followed by is the iPod cable plugged in.  95% of the time the phone call ends with one of those 3 questions, the other 5% are fixed by explaining how to locate and disengage the mute button for the iPod channel, or how to raise the fader(s).  Think Horses not Zebras.

        I am not a fan of the D6, but as others have said it is a respected and capable mic for kick drum.  I use a Beta 52 and a Beta 91 usually, and if I can only use one I go with the 52.  It would be my recommendation that you not spend the money on getting a Beta 91 until you can reasonably get consistently good sound from your current set up.  Having more tools doesn't make you a better craftsman, but having the skills and knowledge to properly use the tools you have does.


    • #20
      Inacan.... I will go back to square one with nothing but the board, Mackie 1604 VLZ, D6, and PV or Behringer EP 2500 unbridged. But when I started this journey it was with them on an unbridged ep2500 with no compressor or eq, and they were not in the mix enough, thats why the bridged pv, compessor was added because the drummer hit harder when doing double bass, compressor helped with that, eq just to help try to see if we can get it just a hair punchier being that I could pinpoint frequincies, did help, add D6, through the eq setting off, since it was stronger at certain frequencies than the Cad. I def pushed my luck with the running the PV bridged, but the Yammies in this whole process have not had the ability to be out front, which has me thinking that I'm asking to much of them. Is that possible? Granted I am going back to unbridged and uninserted and start from scratch and try everything suggested to see if nothing else, can I get a better tonality.

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