Members Pinkycramps Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Well, my latest project (an ambitious cover band) is getting off the ground, and we have assembled some pretty decent talent (well, I'm in there... but everyone else is pretty good).The bass player (long time freind and music partner) and I are getting ready to invest in the PA system, since we don't have one right now. We want a versitle system large enough to play outdoors (concert in the park is a big thing here..) along with about any size club or larger bar. Here is what we are looking at:Mains+ subs: JBL PRX 25 & PRX 418S. 2 ea.Amps: not sure yet. likely Crown or QSC amps to match - whatever power is recomended.. but it's bound to be a bunch. Any advice here? I'm reading the "What I run and why thread", but I'd like direct feedback on this system from anyone who has experience with it.ALSO:What I don't know enough about are monitors. For the mixer board. I know we need at least 16 channels, but I want to make sure we can get our own monitor mixes. Do we need seperate sub mixers for that? how does that work, (for either wedges or IEM)? Any advise on that?thanks people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dcastar Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Any particular reason you're not looking at Powered Speakers? Seems like their ease-of-use factor alone should make them a very attractive option for your application. Also --- what's your total new system budget? I'm sure a few of us can put together a shopping list.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dcastar Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Since you mentioned "Concert In the Park" type thing.... you're going to want a bit more horsepower than what a basic / lower-end JBL system can provide. Here's where I'd start if I were you... Disclaimer : There are tons of other options out there... but don't just take it from me!"Poor Man's Budget PA" --- ~$6000 Pair of QSC KW122 Tops over Pair of QSC KW181 Subs QSC K10's for Monitors Yamaha MG206C This rig gives you just barely enough power to do smaller outdoor shows and will sound very good indoors. For the mixer, it gives you 16 XLR ins, while also having 4 stereo channels available for iPod / keyboards run in stereo / etc.... further it has 8 channels of compression built-in. Basically a nice beginner - all around board before you start adding rack effects. Hooking up monitor/iem mixes is simple. Just run a cable from the Aux1,2,3,or 4 (depending on how many monitor channels you're running) to the monitor or IEM transmitter. Adjust that monitor mix using the Aux knobs on each channel strip.The "I'm pretty serious about this music thing" rig --- ~$10000 Pair of DAS Audio Avant 12A over Pair of DAS Audio Avant 118A QSC K10's for Monitors Presonus StudioLive 16.4.2 Mixer (has all built-in effects/compression etc..)or, if you prefer to stay analog Allen & Heath MixWiz3 16:2 w/ insert channel effects: Presonus ACP88 compressor use MixWiz onboard effects This rig will do very well for small outdoor shows and will rock indoors.The "We're a serious band doing serious things" Rig --- $15000+ Meyer UPA1P tops over Meyer 500HP Subs or any other high-end brand system (KS Audio Session3, D&B, RCF TT, Vue, L-Acoustics) QSC K10 Monitors Presonus StudioLive 16.4.2 Mixer (has all built-in effects/compression etc..)or, if you prefer to stay analog APB Dynasonics ProRack-House w/ insert channel effects: Tube Compressors Lexicon Reverbs DBX Driverack 260 or similar system processor etc... etc... Welcome to the big-leagues... These systems are all scalable and can configure themselves to various venues. Pretty much like going to a concert etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Powered speakers are probably going to be a better choice given the questions you are asking... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Save yourself a lot of grief and if you're set on JBL go PRX612M's for tops and monitors and PRX618S-XLF for subs. I like my Mackie DL1608 mixer and it will do 6 monitor mixes . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Save yourself a lot of grief and if you're set on JBL go PRX612M's for tops and monitors and PRX618S-XLF for subs. I like my Mackie DL1608 mixer and it will do 6 monitor mixes . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueGreene Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Check out the guide for goobers sticky. There's a lot of good information in there. JBL has a really good book as well as the classic Yamaha sound reinforcement handbook. I also like suggesting the Yorkville guide for it's simple wording and good tips to get started. "We want a versitle system large enough to play outdoors (concert in the park is a big thing here..) " filling that park is going to take way more system than you want to buy. I personally think you'd be stretching it to cover 100 people outdoors with one sub, one top per side. At least for the subs. Given the situation, I would highly suggest powered mains as well. A lot of complicated speaker processing/calibration is done by the engineers who know what they're doing. Monitors for you will likely come off the auxes. So just find a mixer with enough auxes -- wedges or IEMs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miko Man Posted January 3, 2013 Members Share Posted January 3, 2013 Pinky, As suggested above, the type of music, the expected number of listeners, and your budget will drive your decision making. With that said, a "scalable" system that you can build over time (renting extra items as needed) makes sense to lots of folks. I personally have picked JBL PRX 600 series active speakers for the base of my rig. I have 612m tops over 618sxlf subs as my main FOH system. I can also use the 612m in monitor or fill positions. (Using the same speaker model for tops as well as monitors gives me redundancy - if a top dies mid-show, I can replace it by stealing one of the monitors.) My plan is to eventually have four 618sxlf subs, six 612m tops/monitors, as well as a pair of 615m that I can use as tops without subs for acoustic gigs. For me, the ease of use for the active speakers (proper power, proper DSP, and easy scaleabilty) plus the light weight and reasonably compact size were plusses. JBL has better name recognition and prestige than most everything else (except at the really high end of the business). Not too many folks are going to turn up their nose at such a rig. JBL has good resale value, too. I also have some non-JBL active 12" speakers, too, for monitor and utility purposes. Outdoors, depending on your style of music, I think you are likely to find you need twice as many subs for a given crowd as you would need indoors. YMMV. Mark C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jlb Posted January 4, 2013 Members Share Posted January 4, 2013 I like the DL 1608 also. Still waiting for them to fix the dynamics/aux tap points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heath_eld Posted January 4, 2013 Members Share Posted January 4, 2013 Originally Posted by jlb I like the DL 1608 also. Still waiting for them to fix the dynamics/aux tap points. Whats that issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jlb Posted January 4, 2013 Members Share Posted January 4, 2013 Originally Posted by heath_eld Whats that issue? Comp/gate/channel eq are pre aux. I dont mind the eq so much, but comp in the monitors is not desireable for most live applications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 4, 2013 Members Share Posted January 4, 2013 Originally Posted by jlb Comp/gate/channel eq are pre aux. I don't mind the eq so much, but comp in the monitors is not desirable for most live applications. Yah, I just use the comps as peak limiters . I'm fine with the auxes being post gate and -for now - post EQ. It always amazes me that a company will design a live sound product like this without actually consulting with any live sound guys . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 4, 2013 Members Share Posted January 4, 2013 Originally Posted by jlb Comp/gate/channel eq are pre aux. I dont mind the eq so much, but comp in the monitors is not desireable for most live applications. To display my ignorance for all to see, why not? Intuitively, I assumed that you would want to send as much as possible of what you are sending to the FOH to the monitors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jlb Posted January 4, 2013 Members Share Posted January 4, 2013 If you want to make your already challenged vocalist work even harder, put some compression in their monitor mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 4, 2013 Members Share Posted January 4, 2013 Originally Posted by jlb If you want to make your already challenged vocalist work even harder, put some compression in their monitor mix. Ah okay. What about for IEM's? Also, what about compressing the drums (particularly the kick) and the bass, not to mention the lead guitar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted January 4, 2013 Members Share Posted January 4, 2013 Originally Posted by ChiroVette To display my ignorance for all to see, why not? Intuitively, I assumed that you would want to send as much as possible of what you are sending to the FOH to the monitors. Compression in the monitors increases the potential for feedback. My SL 16.0.2 is the same. I can configure the AUXs as post gate but pre EQ, compression, and faders or post gate, EQ, compression but pre faders -- ie, if I want EQ in the AUXs I get compression as well. I asked Presonus for a new option -- post gate and EQ but pre compression and faders. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members capitalist Posted January 5, 2013 Members Share Posted January 5, 2013 We have used two JBL 255s subs for over 6 years and they have been fantastic. They are a little overkill for most bars, but they are perfect for outdoors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 5, 2013 Members Share Posted January 5, 2013 Originally Posted by capitalist We have used two JBL 255s subs for over 6 years and they have been fantastic. They are a little overkill for most bars, but they are perfect for outdoors. The MP-255 is not related to anything that we are discussing here. It's a low level, mediocre performing, heavy MI grade product that has less than 1/2 the performance of the specific products being discussed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members whataracket Posted January 5, 2013 Members Share Posted January 5, 2013 OP - You are close enough to Sacramento and the Bay Area that you ought to be able to watch Craigslist and buy much of your equipment used. You could save a lot of money that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bobby1Note Posted January 6, 2013 Members Share Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted by Pinkycramps Well, my latest project (an ambitious cover band) is getting off the ground, and we have assembled some pretty decent talent (well, I'm in there... but everyone else is pretty good).The bass player (long time freind and music partner) and I are getting ready to invest in the PA system, since we don't have one right now. We want a versitle system large enough to play outdoors (concert in the park is a big thing here..) along with about any size club or larger bar. Here is what we are looking at:Mains+ subs: JBL PRX 25 & PRX 418S. 2 ea.Amps: not sure yet. likely Crown or QSC amps to match - whatever power is recomended.. but it's bound to be a bunch. Any advice here? I'm reading the "What I run and why thread", but I'd like direct feedback on this system from anyone who has experience with it.ALSO:What I don't know enough about are monitors. For the mixer board. I know we need at least 16 channels, but I want to make sure we can get our own monitor mixes. Do we need seperate sub mixers for that? how does that work, (for either wedges or IEM)? Any advise on that?thanks people. Personally speaking, and given the "variabilty" of the gigs you said you'll be playing (indoors/outdoors/ crowd-sizes) I'd look at striking up a relationship with a local-area soundman. You show up, you play, you have fun, then you go home. No set-up, no tear-down, no transport and storage, no maintenance, and no major cash outlay. That'll give you a good idea of "what works" for you, and then you'll be better equipped to make that big decision on whether you want to run your own sound, or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dbMontana Posted January 6, 2013 Members Share Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted by agedhorse The MP-255 is not related to anything that we are discussing here. It's a low level, mediocre performing, heavy MI grade product that has less than 1/2 the performance of the specific products being discussed. Sorry aged, I have a reasonable idea just from the context but specifically what does "MI" stand for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 6, 2013 Members Share Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted by dbMontana Sorry aged, I have a reasonable idea just from the context but specifically what does "MI" stand for? Music Industry (as opposed to Pro Audio Industry) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 6, 2013 Members Share Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted by agedhorse Music Industry (as opposed to Pro Audio Industry) So the PRX, K, KW, and DRS cabinets are all Music Industry level but not Pro Audio Industry standard? Just trying to clarify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChiroVette Posted January 6, 2013 Members Share Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted by agedhorse Music Industry (as opposed to Pro Audio Industry) So the PRX, K, KW, and DRS cabinets are all Music Industry level but not Pro Audio Industry standard? Just trying to clarify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted January 6, 2013 Members Share Posted January 6, 2013 Originally Posted by ChiroVette So the PRX, K, KW, and DRS cabinets are all Music Industry level but not Pro Audio Industry standard? Just trying to clarify. Yep....But....All the speakers you listed are way closer sounding to pro level gear than anything ever was before. The new powered and processed speaker lines really raised the sound quality/ dollar ratio big time.Meyer UPA-1P's are some pretty great sounding speakers (and go for around 3-4K a box). Most people would be able to tell the difference in sound quality IMHO between a band playing a Meyer setup and a PRX setup; however, no one would every A/B the same band on 2 systems in a night.People would not say a band sounded bad BECAUSE they were using a PRX system if the band actually performed well.IMHO at the level of a PRX system, the quality of the mix and the quality of the performers is going to WAY outweigh any performance difference between a Meyer rig and a PRX rig (not to say I wouldn't want a Meyer rig ).The bigger difference I see is that Pro Audio speakers tend to have more industrial connectors, are stackable/arrayable and are specifically designed to be able to extend to larger audiences.Most MI gear is designed for the masses (ie those of us that will never play to a crowd of 1000 or more people). MI gear gives up some performance, some features, and almost always the ability to scale in the interest of ease of use, weight, and price..... all things that are of less importance to a Pro Audio guy that is doing sound for national acts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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