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I play in a blues duo and mostly do small venues at a conversational sound level. Our little PA has handled this so far. We are getting booked in some rowdier venues and are considering a pair of powered speaks . We make almost nothing at these dives so we are looking at cheap. Peavey PR15P, Behringer b215d. I use a 4 channel mixer with mics direct and guitar through a POD. Any ideas appreciated.

 

Oldude:cool:

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"good" and "cheap" don't often mix.

 

What's your budget? Based off your listings of the PR15 and B215D.... I'd hazard to guess you're under-budgeting.

 

The advice you'll most likely receive from many of us here is : "Buy once, Cry once." - meaning, don't cheap out in the first place, only to have to go back a 2nd time and spend more money to get a better piece of gear that you could've gotten the first time.

 

 

For a Blues Duo... that doesn't need a lot of volume... some decent "lower budget" options would be:

 

QSC K10 or K12

JBL PRX612

RCF ART 310A or 312A

Yamaha DXR10 or DXR12

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"good" and "cheap" don't often mix.


What's your budget? Based off your listings of the PR15 and B215D.... I'd hazard to guess you're under-budgeting.


The advice you'll most likely receive from many of us here is : "Buy once, Cry once." - meaning, don't cheap out in the first place, only to have to go back a 2nd time and spend more money to get a better piece of gear that you could've gotten the first time.



For a Blues Duo... that doesn't need a lot of volume... some decent "lower budget" options would be:


QSC K10 or K12

JBL PRX612

RCF ART 310A or 312A

Yamaha DXR10 or DXR12

 

 

 

Very good advice here. One question for the OP - what instruments will you run through this system? Knowing this might help us help you. By the way, I also play in an acoustic blues duo.

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dcastar is spot on. I assume that the duo is probably bass, guitar (or 2 guitars) and vocals (I am also in a duo like this) and the 12" speakers actually do great low end at smaller venues. Hauling around a couple 12" speakers compared to a couple of heavier and bigger 15" speakers might be something to look into. You can always add a powered sub down the road if needed. My duo generally uses an older PRX512 (sometimes 2) and the bass is nice, clean and clear at smaller places. In bigger places we will use a single sub. We usually only use a second 512 if the room needs better coverage. The speakers are plenty loud that one can fill some of the rooms we work. That and a stand to get the sound over people's heads and we are set. I'm a self-confessed JBL fanboy but all the dcastar's suggestions will work, although some will need a little more tweaking of the EQ than others. A single good quality 12" will be better than two lower end 15" speakers.

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Very good advice here. One question for the OP - what instruments will you run through this system? Knowing this might help us help you. By the way, I also play in an acoustic blues duo.

 

 

I run a Godin 5th Ave acoustic with a floating hb , vocal mic and harmonica mic The guitar I use with a 1st gen POD as a direct.

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I run a Godin 5th Ave acoustic with a floating hb , vocal mic and harmonica mic The guitar I use with a 1st gen POD as a direct.

 

 

Good quality 12" cabs should work well for you. That is what I use (at least I think they are good quality), though my setup is passive.

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I often think duos in smaller venues would be better off with one good quality speaker set up right behind them. As long as you stay tight to the mics you can get pretty darn high level out of it and you can hear it for monitoring. In many small spaces, one 90 degree horn is has enough coverage too.

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some decent "lower budget" options would be:


QSC K10 or K12

JBL PRX612

RCF ART 310A or 312A

Yamaha DXR10 or DXR12

 

Warning - Dumb Question Of the Year Alert

 

Are these speakers really low budget? I ask because to build a PA system out of, let's say a pair of PRX612 tops, a pair of matched PRX618XLF subs, plus say another pair of 612's as monitors would cost upwards of 6 grand without a mixer, stands, effects, bags, wires, and other rack equipment.

 

Then again (at the risk of answering my own question) if I wanted to go high end, I guess I could go for a pair of VRX932Lap's as tops, a pair of VRX918sp subs, plus a pair of Srx712 monitors with a nice crown amp to power them, which would all come out to about ten grand instead of six. :) lol

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There is a small and extremely smart group of people here that realize the mid-level speakers that dcastar mentions should be the lowest end that anybody considers. They are all good quality and reliable speakers that will give the owner years of great service. There are cheaper speakers out there but generally, the added quality and reliability that the mentioned speakers offer make them well worth the few extra dollars.

 

High end? Try Meyer. That would be where I would head once I outgrow my current "low end" system (PRX512s over PRX618XLFs). I wouldn't go lower than what I own and it is an incredible sounding and reliable system. I have over $15,000 in my "low end" system and that is a really nice sounding starting point.

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There is a small and extremely smart group of people here that realize the mid-level speakers that dcastar mentions should be the lowest end that anybody considers. They are all good quality and reliable speakers that will give the owner years of great sound. There are cheaper speakers out there but generally, the added quality and reliability that the mentioned speakers offer make them well worth the few extra dollars.

 

Yes; Thank You.

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There is a small and extremely smart group of people here that realize the mid-level speakers that dcastar mentions should be the lowest end that anybody considers. They are all good quality and reliable speakers that will give the owner years of great service. There are cheaper speakers out there but generally, the added quality and reliability that the mentioned speakers offer make them well worth the few extra dollars.

 

 

Except that isn't what I was asking.

 

He referred to them as low end, or rather "lower end," and I am trying to be VERY CAREFUL here. Honestly, I am not going to spend upwards of 6 grand on "low end" speakers. I would sooner keep what I have already than do that. While I don't have any illusions about this price point giving me high end quality (say 15K worth of speakers) I certainly don't intend to spend that kind of money on "low end" gear. If that's the case, I already have low end gear in my old JBL MR series speakers. And in their own way, they are actually pretty nice sounding. So, if all 6 grand is going to net me is relatively "low end" then I can honestly think about about a dozen things I would rather spend my money on.

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6 Grand is an acceptable budget for a good, quality, basic setup. (2 subs + 2 tops).

 

That price point is about the "sweet spot" in terms of Price v. Performance. Getting better performance, requires an even more costly monetary investment.

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Except that isn't what I was asking.


He referred to them as low end, or rather "lower end," and I am trying to be VERY CAREFUL here. Honestly, I am not going to spend upwards of 6 grand on "low end" speakers. I would sooner keep what I have already than do that. While I don't have any illusions about this price point giving me high end quality (say 15K worth of speakers) I certainly don't intend to spend that kind of money on "low end" gear. If that's the case, I already have low end gear in my old JBL MR series speakers. And in their own way, they are actually pretty nice sounding. So, if all 6 grand is going to net me is relatively "low end" then I can honestly think about about a dozen things I would rather spend my money on.

 

 

Don't confuse "low end" with "garbage". Remember, you're getting this advice from people who use, or have used, this stuff and higher regularly. In this instance "low end" simply means "acceptable starting point". I realize that's hard to hear when talking about a $6K purchase, but that's the plain ol' truth with no suger coating. Speakers less than examples dcaster suggests are toys and should be avoided if you are at all serious about doing this semi-professionally.

 

After this level you have to ask yourself if the incremental improvement is worth the cost. For instance, RCF 310A and 312A speakers are decent sounding boxes, especially for the price. They've come down in price, but at the time I purchased my RCF's I decided it was worth about double the cost for the 522A's I purchased, and still use. I bought these the beginning of 2008 and they serve me well to this day. So let's say I spent $1200 more for these speakers. I've done roughly 175 shows since then so, to date, the premium has been $6.85 a show and it goes down with each show. These weren't the first boxes I purchased, but will probably be the last so long as they hold up. I've pretty much met my aspirations as a professional musician and the speakers I own are appropriate for what I do (and they are ludicrously light). IMO, the benefits from "better" speakers than I currently own would not yield more bookings, or a significant enough improvement in sound to matter to me. The short and sweet of it is.... I'd like to think I'm picky and I'm happy with our sound and so are our clients. So the wallet is closed, (for speakers anyway. I'm always farting around with something).

 

FWIW, I do own 3 RCF 310A's used for monitors and they are excellent in this application. I also own a pair of RCF 322A's and pair of 705-AS subs.

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The PRX series is at the low end of the professional scale of speakers. That doesn't make it bad; what's the joke, "what do you call the doctor that graduated last in his class? Doctor!". There are multiple levels you have to consider when dealing with pro audio; "low end" doesn't mean it's hanging out with the Behringers of the world, because those aren't even in the "professional scale".

 

I love our PRX setup but I have no doubts that it's nowhere as good as our Meyer rig was in terms of reliability OR sound quality. When we decided to switch, we did it because we know we're not running sound at a level where the Meyer name was doing us any good, and we didn't have a large enough rig to make it worth it for larger shows. The PRX612M won't hold a candle to a Meyer UPA-1P or an L'Acoustics 112P... but it's also a tenth of the cost, too... or less.

 

JBL PRX, EV ELX, and QSC K are what I'd consider the "entry level" of professional powered systems. Anything below them would be amateur hour stuff, and there's a significant number of choices above them... but the cost is exponential... with this level, you're at 75% of the sound quality and 25% of the price... which is where I want to be.

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Okay, I think I understand now. From what it sounded like above, before I responded, I got the impression that low end meant garbage, but somehow "acceptable garbage" to many people. It sounds like for my needs, as a musician in a rock band, that as long as money is an object, that there would come a point of diminishing returns with regard to going above and beyond the PRX, K, KW, etc. speakers. So let me see if I have this right: You guys are saying that the biggest bang for my buck (going from my mediocre MR series boxes and my sound man's CRAP JRX speakers) would be to spring for the entry level pro gear, because I will get up to about 75% of the best sound I could hope for, whereas to get that extra, elusive 25% I would have to spend upwards of say 25 grand or more on the speakers. Stated another way, I would have to spend more than triple the 6-7 thousand dollars to get the extra 25% of quality (to use Zeromus-X's numbers) so the largest gain I am going to see over what I have now will actually occur within that 7 grand or so investment and then it would just be adding "a little more quality" as I go up the food chain by multiples of that amount? Is that a fair assessment of the point you guys are making?

 

By the way, what do the folks here have against VRX? I have no knowledge of the product so that isn't a loaded question. I just know one very knowledgeable sound man who lives in the Upstate NY area and he has a sound company and does a ton of outdoor festivals with his VRX based system and he swears by it. Again, I could NOT argue for or against the product, I just respect the guy's opinion a lot, but I have also come to respect the opinions of you folks as well. So I am curious about this.

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Okay, I think I understand now. From what it sounded like above, before I responded, I got the impression that low end meant garbage, but somehow "acceptable garbage" to many people. It sounds like for my needs, as a musician in a rock band, that as long as money is an object, that there would come a point of diminishing returns with regard to going above and beyond the PRX, K, KW, etc. speakers.
So let me see if I have this right: You guys are saying that the biggest bang for my buck (going from my mediocre MR series boxes and my sound man's CRAP JRX speakers) would be to spring for the entry level pro gear, because I will get up to about 75% of the best sound I could hope for, whereas to get that extra, elusive 25% I would have to spend upwards of say 25 grand or more on the speakers.
Stated another way, I would have to spend more than triple the 6-7 thousand dollars to get the extra 25% of quality (to use
Zeromus-X's
numbers) so the largest gain I am going to see over what I have now will actually occur within that 7 grand or so investment and then it would just be adding "a little more quality" as I go up the food chain by multiples of that amount? Is that a fair assessment of the point you guys are making?


By the way, what do the folks here have against VRX? I have no knowledge of the product so that isn't a loaded question. I just know one very knowledgeable sound man who lives in the Upstate NY area and he has a sound company and does a ton of outdoor festivals with his VRX based system and he swears by it. Again, I could NOT argue for or against the product, I just respect the guy's opinion a lot, but I have also come to respect the opinions of you folks as well. So I am curious about this.

 

 

I pretty much agree with that sentiment. We have speakers in pretty much the same league as the PRX (which was one of the options we auditioned) and for the small level stuff we do I would love to step up another level still but it just doesn't really make economic sense. I could maybe justify to myself moving up to like SRX level gear, but true pro level stuff is just doesn't make sense in any fashion.

 

I don't think anyone said they had a problem with VRX, I thought they just commented that some people wouldn't consider it "real" pro gear.... It certainly isn't the best even in the JBL line.

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I don't think you'll find many people with a "problem" with VRX systems... but that there are many other options out there that may be better for some/most.

 

Remember that when I say "next 25% quality"... I'm talking about the pro arena there, too. Compared to a Behringer or Speakerhole or whatever the product of the day is, there's going to be a mass improvement simply by joining the next league. It's kind of like buying the cheapest Mercedes... yeah, there are lots of higher end models, but you're still in the league.

 

The unfortunate downside of buying the cheapest Mercedes, of course, is that now you're going to look at the higher-up models and start wanting for their features... and if you ever need to shop for a Toyota... you're going to be disappointed.

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Okay, that makes sense. So basically you guys are saying that while VRX is certainly above, say PRX and SRX, it is still not top of the line. I was looking at some of the Vertec Line-Array stuff (not that I am in the market to spend that kind of money, of course) and was fascinated by it. Lifeloverwg, I was actually looking at some of the SRX stuff, but some of the folks in this forum were saying that even though passive is technically better than powered, that someone at my skill level would actually enjoy an equal, and perhaps better sound quality, from the powered PRX than the SRX because of my inexperience. I know that SRX are all passive speaker systems. That's why I briefly flirted (VERY BRIEFLY!) with the possibility of going with the powered VRX stuff. lol Nothing like a toaster oven sized powered VRX932Lap where they are so light I can grab one in each hand.

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I guess it's all perspective. I consider low end to be Peavey, Carvin, etc. I use powered Carvin speakers (LM and PM series), and I think they sound pretty darn good for the price. Granted, I've never used most of the models you guys are referencing, and I'm sure they sound superior, but the Carvins sound good to me, are cheap, have worked for years without fail, and I don't get any audience complaints on the sound. I don't want to try nicer speakers, because if I do, I'll want to get them! :)

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Boy, This whole thread is out of my league totally. I have used an old Kustom set up for years and have been pretty happy with it. My income last year was 3600. So thanks for all the advice but Peavey etc is my price range until I hit the big time:cool: As far as Behringer , I have a couple of their mics that have been great so I guess to each his own.

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Nothing like high expectations and a longer term look at your investment.

 

For something like the Yamaha DXR or QSC K12, yu are talking about a little bit more money for a lot more performance over a lot longer time. I suppose it depends how important sounding good is to your audience. If your audience doesn't care and you don't care then I suppose it really doesn't matter. I would question why you would play out if that's really the case though.

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I think that what he is saying is perhaps his audience isn't sophisticated enough to hear the difference in quality. I honestly think that most audiences are out looking to get drunk and to dance around trying to meet someone to get laid. They are out partying, and I have noticed, particularly in bars, that they care a helluva a lot less than I do about how good the mix is, how clear the vocals are, etc.

 

In all honesty, my band has a ton of fans and you know what? When I play through better PA systems it seems like the band members are the only ones that actually give a {censored} about the tonal and aural differences.

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