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  • Mixing From Stage (The next generation)

    I currently use an Allen & Heath MixWiz.  There is nothing wrong with it by any stretch of the imagination with respect to sound quality and analog features, but the rack is heavy and there are no remote mixing options other than my 100' 16 channel reel snake.

    My first thought was to get a StudioLive 16.0.2 which would be very small and have everything I need already inside the mixer.  Then I thought, well, for the additional bucks, the SL 16.4.2 may be a better option.

    I started reading up on the new X32 line and went to GC to give it a test drive (although I have no need for 32 channels, I wanted to see how the work flow went).  It wasn't bad, but I prefered the SL layout.

    Just recently, I started to rethink this whole setup.

    Lets start by reviewing my goals .....

    1. Mixer must be small and light and easy to setup for the night
    2. Must be able to record multi-track for demo's and live gig recordings
    3. Must have a way to mix easily on stage.

    Now I have to admit that I was completely swayed by how easy the SL is to operate and learn ..... but here is the thing ..... I don't change my mixer very much at all once I have it setup.  I basically only need to change sliders for vocals based upon who is doing lead and who is doing backup.

    I am 47 yrs old and somewhat set in my ways.  I really like my physical sliders and physical knobs .... but perhaps I don't actually need them.  Considering my use model, perhaps a better setup would be:

    1. X32 Rack
    2. Laptop for initial setup
    3. Android/Windows 8 Tablet/iPad for remote monitoring and slight changes mounted directly to my mic stand.

    This setup might not be AS good for me for the occassional "do sound for a friend" gig that I do a few times a year (for the bargain basement price of a good meal and a beer with friends), but for what I do most of the time, it may be ideal.

    I used to bring a snake and have someone mix basic levels out in the audience, but it became too much trouble since many bars don't have anywhere convienient to do this (the mixer rack just takes up too much space and the snake is a trip hazzard).  I have been mixing from stage for about 4 years now.

    I was wondering what your thoughts were on this?

    With Greater Knowledge Comes Greater Understanding

  • #2

     I mix from stage using both the 16.0.2 or the 16.4.2 depending on the gig. i don't use a computer. I like it because i can make changes on the fly without really dicking around with menus.

    Comment


    • StratGuy22
      StratGuy22 commented
      Editing a comment
      I mix from the stage for my band with a 24.4.2 its workflow mace tweaking someone's monitor mix a breeze. 1 button press brings you to the desired aux mix. Have no idea how you get to the aux/matrix layer on an X32.

      I also set the main mix from out front with an iPad. So handy!!

      And I multitracj record all our gigs, for later user.

    • BlueGreene
      BlueGreene commented
      Editing a comment

      Doesn't the studiolive refresh everything changed on the Ipad except the faders instantly? I would think that if you need to jump up and change something on stage it's likely not in the mains anyway.

      Rarely do I find a band mixing themselves on stage to be well mixed.


  • #3
    So you think this is the future for the mix from stage bands?
    With Greater Knowledge Comes Greater Understanding

    Comment


    • #4
      It's actually the present.


      NO SIGNATURE FOR YOU!!

      Comment


      • sailorman
        sailorman commented
        Editing a comment

        I recently bought a Yamaha 01V specifically to utilize mix scenes.   We have 2 main lead vocalists, 1 male, one female, and 2 others who sing lead on certain songs.   ALL have terrible mic technique, so for ex., when the female is singing lead, the male lead singer is overwhelming singing harmony.   And yes, I've tried to address this for the past 5 years....   


        So I set up a mix scene for each situation, with the lead singer up and the others all down approx. 5db or so.   Effects set too.   We use a midi pedal to switch between scenes, controlled by the bassist (I play guitar and switch guitars and pedal settings so too busy).  

        I record rehearsals off the board, and used them to tweat settings before our first gig.   Listening to both room and board recordings from that gig, the vocal mix is much improved.  The 01V has limited 'safe list' settings compared to the newer boards, and I'd prefer to have a 16.0.2, but not in the budget.   It works for us, but of course, not necessarily a good match for others.   If I was running sound from out in front, I'd probably prefer an analog board, but running from stage where I really can't do much if any EQ or anything else, this works fine.

        I should note that we run vocals only through the PA, no instruments, and a single aux mix to the wedges (soon to change to 2 or more).  


    • #5

      Reason I'm suggesting going with a console version is because you got every thing you need at your finger tips for on the fly parameter tweaks so if the wifi ain't working you still got the console to use with buttons, knobs, and faders and no down time pulling your hair out because the damn ipad won't stay connected. 

       

      Comment


      • RoadRanger
        RoadRanger commented
        Editing a comment

        twostone wrote:

        Reason I'm suggesting going with a console version is because you got every thing you need at your finger tips for on the fly parameter tweaks so if the wifi ain't working you still got the console to use with buttons, knobs, and faders and no down time pulling your hair out because the damn ipad won't stay connected. 


        Ain't that hard to plug the iPad in .


    • #6

      There is always the option to have a laptop hard connected through ethernet if wireless connection becomes a problem.

      The iPAD app would then have a backup should the wireless be an issue, or the tablet should be broken or stolen or generally not able to work for some reason.

      Still ..... it might be nice to have real faders.

      It is looking like the X32 producer and the X32 rack are not going to be availible until Q3 (when anyone says it like that, I always assume that Q3 means the end of September).

      They are working on an Android app as well and have an open interface to their communication protocol which should allow some 3rd party tools to spring up as well (if I get boared, maybe I'll even take a wack at one myself).  Having an Android app would allow me to use my phone in the worst case scenareo as a remote while a wired solution would be pretty fail proof as long as the laptop doesn't die.

      I tell you, there are really only a few things about the X32 that have me wanting to wait for it instead of just purchasing a 16.4.2 today (and believe me, the child in me wakes up every morning and wants to just go and buy one now ).

      1. No computer needed for wireless remote
      2. Outstanding vocal efx (soon to include pitch correction as well)
      3. Support of non Apple products
      4. MIDI scene changes
      5. Remote changes for channel gain

      I don't know how the idea got into my head, but the idea a brand new workflow is really appealing to me:

      1. Scene changes through a MIDI footswitch for live settings
      2. Remote setup of scenes through a laptop to re-mix and re-process the band to create the perfect mix
      3. Remote tweaking in a live situation through a tablet or laptop

      I am going to die before September!  I guess there is always the chance that the X32 could start having tons of issues in the field before then and I could end up with a SL 16.4.2 pretty quickly then

      With Greater Knowledge Comes Greater Understanding

      Comment


      • OneEng
        OneEng commented
        Editing a comment

        Oh, and an update.

        Using the free XControl software, I have been able to figure out how to get the GEQ into the insert on the main outs.  I have decided that I will sell my Zoom R16 and use a laptop for recording through either firewire or USB since this will let me easily send the recorded material back into the mixer for post scene modifications.

        I haven't quite figured out all the routing on the X32, but that is next on my list.

        I do re-iterate that this console isn't for everyone.  I have had to spend considerable time and effort reading, watching videos, and playing around with the XControl software in order to figure it out.

        I did figure out how to do MIDI scene changes as well.  I also found out how to use the user assignable buttons and encoders to control your most frequent settings with.

        Of course, I figured out all of the features I would need on the 16.4.2 in about 5 minutes.  Most of it was so obvious I didn't need anyone to explain it at all.


    • #7
      We mix from the stage most of the time, with a Studiolive. I also mix bands. I save a scene for each band and recall the scene when the band plays again.

      I have no problem resetting the gains, as they might have a different amp etc. it's not a big deal.
      NO SIGNATURE FOR YOU!!

      Comment


      • OneEng
        OneEng commented
        Editing a comment

        StratGuy22 wrote:
        We mix from the stage most of the time, with a Studiolive. I also mix bands. I save a scene for each band and recall the scene when the band plays again.

        I have no problem resetting the gains, as they might have a different amp etc. it's not a big deal.

        I think you have to do this even with your own band (at least I do) for everything except vocal microphones.  The amps (especially tube amps) never seem to be set exactly at the same volume every time and need the input gain adjusted because of this IME.

        Even my drum input (vDrums) can change from gig to gig.  I think the knobs just get bumped here or there in transport.

        The vocal microphones seem to be OK and don't change.


    • #8

      In all this discussion of the currently available "mixing from stage, The Next Generation"... is anyone besides me interested in the Line6 M20d? At least for those of us who need smaller channel counts? The recent price drop to $2k USD makes it a little more appealing. I haven't jumped yet, but I'm almost ready.

      For me, it has two compelling features -- internal multitrack recording of the gigs (don't need a laptop!), and the lack of motorized faders might mean a longer lifespan. 

      Is it the cartoon interface that turns people off? It turns *me* off, so I can understand that... I'm just wondering.

      The Behringer X32 Producer with lower input count and smaller footprint looks interesting, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to buy anything "B" brand right now.

      I wish we knew what Yamaha was planning on, in this market segment. Also A&H and Soundcraft... they'll have to get in here, eventually.

      Comment


      • RoadRanger
        RoadRanger commented
        Editing a comment

        Reson8tor wrote:

        [...] is anyone besides me interested in the Line6 M20d?


        They have a support forum for it - worth reading up over there if you haven't already  :

        http://line6.com/support/community/support/mixer


      • OneEng
        OneEng commented
        Editing a comment

        Reson8tor wrote:

        In all this discussion of the currently available "mixing from stage, The Next Generation"... is anyone besides me interested in the Line6 M20d? At least for those of us who need smaller channel counts? The recent price drop to $2k USD makes it a little more appealing. I haven't jumped yet, but I'm almost ready.

        For me, it has two compelling features -- internal multitrack recording of the gigs (don't need a laptop!), and the lack of motorized faders might mean a longer lifespan. 

        Is it the cartoon interface that turns people off? It turns *me* off, so I can understand that... I'm just wondering.

        The Behringer X32 Producer with lower input count and smaller footprint looks interesting, but I'm not sure I can bring myself to buy anything "B" brand right now.

        I wish we knew what Yamaha was planning on, in this market segment. Also A&H and Soundcraft... they'll have to get in here, eventually.


        I hear you on the motorized faders.  I hear Behringer is only going to warrant the faders for 1 year while the internals of the device are warranted for 3 years.

        As far as the Line 6 offering goes, it looks like it comes with a built in virtual control surface.  Is that true?

        I am looking at the Behringer X32 Rack which is a 16 channel X32 with the control surface being either an iPad wireless and/or a PC/Mac wired through ethernet.  This comes in at $1500.00.

        The iX16 by Behringer comes in at $1000.00, but isn't nearly as powerful as the X32 Rack .... but then again, I don't really need that much either.  I hear really good things about the sound and efx quality of the X32, but the iX16 isn't released yet.  I have a feeling that this is more than just a stripped down version of the X32, but rather a less powerful processing system.  

        The iX16 has 8 mix busses, 16 mic combo inputs, and 6 TRS aux outputs.  I believe that those 8 mix busses must be used to create a mix for each effect, (either across any input like reverb or on an insert like an eq on the main output).  I think you need a mix bus for each group you want as well (say drums).  I know that the X32 has 4 potential efx (of your choice) which can be assigned across any channel (like reverb), and 4 potential efx (of your choice) which can be put on an insert.

        I am curious how much power the iX16 has in this respect.  If I could create a submix for "all vocals", that would be good enough for me since I have a drummer with vDrums (although I might want to use individual outs on the vDrums and mix them myself and create a "Drums" submix).

        I think 2 efx would be plenty (reverb on one and delay on another).

        I am also curious as to the sound quality of the iX16.  I know that the X32 sounds good, but I feel that the lower processing power (that I am assuming the iX16 has with respect to the X32) may effect the quality of the efx.  

        The iX16 is supposed to be released around April, so I am going to wait it out and hear it for myself against the X32.  The X32 rack, compact, and producer are not going to be released until this fall, but I would wait if the iX16 doesn't have the same sound quality.



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