Acoustic band set up advice

[Lanefair]

Hi, so every now and again my band does a three piece drums, acoustic guitar+vocals, vocals show. I'm struggling to get the guitar to cut through whilst providing a good low end. The lead vocals seem to be more bassy than the guitar. It's a DI'd piezo pickup. Drums have the kick miced up usually. Should I Mic up the guitar? I basically want it to dominate the frequencies either end of the vocals if that makes any sense. Any particular eq or fx tricks?

[agedhorse]

How about it sounding like a good guitar?

 

What are you using for a guitar and DI?

[Lanefair]

It's a roundback acoustic called Applause I think, and a passive piezo with gain and tone slides. It's not high spec but you'll have to trust me that acoustically it sounds great, and I've gotten good results through the PA in the past but not with drums. I use a behringer DI and I've experimented with Eq pedals, comps, reverb. I used a dedicated monitor just for acoustic (facing the crowd) and that helped with definition a bit.

[RoadRanger]

I don't think the Ovation Applause has a built-in pickup - is this an add-on?

[Lanefair]

No it came stock. I can't say for certain its an Ovation. It might be a cheap soundalike. I bought it about 13 years ago.

[monthlymixcd]

Yeah, odds are it's the pickup's fault. If it's truly a passive bridge pickup then perhaps it's not seated correctly under the saddle or too short to adequately extend below the low E string part of it? If it's actually active with an endpin jack-mounted preamp with a battery clip inside somewhere... then the battery is missing or dead severely limiting the output and frequencies. If it's active with a good battery then it's probably got a nasty low end rolloff to reduce feedback (common in low end preamps).

Regardless, get a good acoustic DI (good to have anyway and needed to match impedence to the mixer) and see if that helps. Change the pickup/preamp out for better... or get a new guitar w/ better preamp.

EDIT: If buying a new under saddle pickup, two words: Fishman Matrix

[Lanefair]

Hi, thanks for the responses. It's completely passive. I tend to roll the tone right off, and recently I've found that rolling off the gain a bit reduces the shrill side too. I'm half tempted to get a Humbucker for the soundhole and wiring it to a stereo jack so I can mix and match piezo and Humbucker. My only worry is that it just ends up being more electric sounding than before, but if that gets me the 'power' I need to carry the music then so be it.

[Guitarman63]

I would think twice about investing any more money in this guitar. Save and buy a better used high end guitar.

My 2000 Taylor has a "prefix" system by fishman and it sounds great. I also have a cheap Washburn with a fishman 301T. It is as basic as they come volume, treb. bass. phase switch. With this set up I used a Presonus tube pre amp I had for warming up vocals on recordings. It def. brought that guitar to life!

[Shaster]

 

---

Lanefair wrote:

 

It's a roundback acoustic called Applause I think, and a passive piezo with gain and tone slides. It's not high spec but you'll have to trust me that acoustically it sounds great, and I've gotten good results through the PA in the past but not with drums. I use a behringer DI and I've experimented with Eq pedals, comps, reverb. I used a dedicated monitor just for acoustic (facing the crowd) and that helped with definition a bit.

---

 

I have an Ovation knock-off from about 25 years ago, that was made in Korea. It has a passive under saddle PUP that is dreadful. But that guitar has very rudimentary controls.

I would suspect that if your guitar has the kind of gain and tone controls you describe, then it's probably active and that there is a battery lurking somewhere. I could be wrong, but that would be where I started. Locating and changing the battery - assuming there is one.

I would also agree that spending more on that guitar might be throwing good money after bad. BTW how does your PA generally sound? What are you using, and so on.

[DanBAP]

 

---

Lanefair wrote:

 

 I'm struggling to get the guitar to cut through 

---

 

 

---

Lanefair wrote:

 

I tend to roll the tone right off,

---

 

 

Well, there's part of your problem. Rolling off the high end isn't going to help you cut through the mix. IME, balance between body and brightness on an amplified acoustic guitar is as much a function of playing technique as it anything else.

 

Got any recordings of you playing this guitar?

 

-Dan.

[Lanefair]

Hi guys. Played on the weekend, sounded much better. Can only conclude the following:

 

Our band PA is much better than the practice room (with new fane sovereign speakers)

 

Using a thicker pick on acoustic helps tonewise.

 

Running a dedicated monitor for the guitar helps it to stand out, for my sake but also in the room as a whole.

 

Being turned up a little bit extra so I have to play a bit more dynamically during a song helps to cut through the mix.

 

I don't think buying a soundhole Humbucker would be a waste would it? It could always follow me to a new guitar.

[monthlymixcd]

FWIW - My acoustic is a Yairi DY53 and I use a Martin Thinline Gold+ under-saddle piezo mixed with the preamp in an EMG ACS soundhole magnetic pickup system. Sounds best mixed toward the piezo end of things... but if I am in a louder environment and start getting feedback from the guitar body resonance I can roll up the volume control on the magnetic (within easy reach) and drop my overall volume down a little to compensate... or just use that volume control for a little boost for a solo. Output jack is also stereo so I can process the piezo signal seperately before hitting the PA.

I'd still get an outboard preamp like one of the Baggs or Radial units if I were you. That will prove useful even if you upgrade your guitar later.

[Craig Vecchione]

---

Lanefair wrote:

Hi, so every now and again my band does a three piece drums, acoustic guitar+vocals, vocals show. I'm struggling to get the guitar to cut through whilst providing a good low end. The lead vocals seem to be more bassy than the guitar. It's a DI'd piezo pickup. Drums have the kick miced up usually. Should I Mic up the guitar? I basically want it to dominate the frequencies either end of the vocals if that makes any sense. Any particular eq or fx tricks?

---

 

Getting back to the basics, for a single instrument or vocal to "cut through" a mix, as for leads, that instrument should be a minimum of 3dB louder than the overall mix.

Most vocals fall into the midrange area. Guitars are also midrange instruments. It sounded as if you were trying to make the guitar cut through by emphasizing the two ends of the frequency spectrum that it doesn't normally create other than over- and under-tones. This probably won't work well as it would tend to make an acoustic guitar sound less than natural, which you noted in another post. Get a good tone you like from the guitar, and simply make it loud enough during the verses and louder than the overall mix during leads.