Speaker delay ?

[twostone]

So do I need to speaker delay which I have, if my my tops are 18" behind the subs.

Also since my subs will be on the ground coupled side by side my tops on on stage which is elevated 2ft

will the elevation difference cause any problems since my tops will be elevated way higher then usual. . Since I normally vertical stack my 2 EV Live X subs which dubs for the speaker stand of my Yorkie NX750P on top. 

[dennis a]

 

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twostone wrote:

 

 

So do I need to speaker delay which I have, if my my tops are 18" behind the subs.

 

Also since my subs will be on the ground coupled side by side my tops on on stage which is elevated 2ft

 

will the elevation difference cause any problems since my tops will be elevated way higher then usual. . Since I normally vertical stack my 2 EV Live X subs which dubs for the speaker stand of my Yorkie NX750P on top. 

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I align my subs to my tops no matter how I position them

[Pro Sound Guy]

I am in the analog world and try as much as possible to align the voice coils on the same plane in my

ground stacks.

They say align the acoustic centers.

If I do the JF260's on sticks I sill align the voice coils to the sub voice coils.

This does not mean it is perfect but analog is what Ive got and live with it.

How bout starting to delay the subs 18" and listen to some good music through the system

Listen for bass lag or lead and adjust until it sounds right.

My neighbor has some Mackie speakers on a stick.  I sold him a JBL dual 12" powered sub.

We sat there listening to music in his back yard and I physically moved the sub until the

subs and tops sounded just right together.    The sub ended up 6ft in front of the speakers

on a stick.   

It sounded perfect for the seating location directly out front of the system.

I have heard of delays of 12ft-14ft between small tops and subs.

Unless you have a way to measure it then you are going to have to delay, and listen to some music

through your system and walk around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[agedhorse]

If the sub uses DSP processing, add the latency which can account for this distance.

Frankly, I'm not sure I would worry about 18" between subs and tops (because the frequency is so low at the crossover) but if either the tops or subs use DSP, I would consider that in addition to physical displacement as the sum ofthe two could become significant.

[twostone]

 

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Pro Sound Guy wrote:

 

 

I am in the analog world and try as much as possible to align the voice coils on the same plane in my

 

ground stacks.

 

They say align the acoustic centers.

 

If I do the JF260's on sticks I sill align the voice coils to the sub voice coils.

 

This does not mean it is perfect but analog is what Ive got and live with it.

 

How bout starting to delay the subs 18" and listen to some good music through the system

 

Listen for bass lag or lead and adjust until it sounds right.

 

My neighbor has some Mackie speakers on a stick.  I sold him a JBL dual 12" powered sub.

 

We sat there listening to music in his back yard and I physically moved the sub until the

 

subs and tops sounded just right together.    The sub ended up 6ft in front of the speakers

 

on a stick.   

 

It sounded perfect for the seating location directly out front of the system.

 

I have heard of delays of 12ft-14ft between small tops and subs.

 

Unless you have a way to measure it then you are going to have to delay, and listen to some music

 

through your system and walk around.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Well I did plan on alignment now pardon my stupidity here because I never delayed speakers in the past 7 years I been mixing live sound but I'm guessing I delay the subs ?

 

 

 

[Dookietwo]

A down and dirty way is to put a test tone on at the crossover frequency.

Lets say your crossover point is 100hz. With the tops muted put on a 100 hz tone in your sub and bring it up to 84dbs. I like to have the meter on the ground about 1/2 way out in a venue. Now mute the sub and put that same tone in your tops and use the "Crossover High output" so that it reads 84 dbs of output.

Now unmute your sub. If both signals are reaching your microphone in phase / time there should be a 6 db increase in output. If not start adding delay to the tops. Does the output go up or down? If it starts going down continue to add delay until it starts climbing again until you get 90dbs at your meter. Lets say its 6.6ms. Now remove the delay from the tops and start adding delay to the sub. Look for the 90db output as well. If you get 3.5 ms delay that works for the sub and 6.6 for the tops keep the delay in the subs. If the tops take 6.6 and the subs take 10.5 then use the delay time in the tops to align them. The idea is to use what ever delay time that is less. One thing you will notice. If its the loudest at 6.6ms and you continue to add delay it will rotate or drop in volume, go back up, then drop again. Its in relation to the freq. size.

Of course where you delay your tops to your subs is up to you. Could be the center of the dance floor, where your doing your mix or even where if there is too much 100hz in the room you could use this to remove some in that area. The closer your speakers are together the more important it is to have them in alignment when they are both reproducing the same freq. I delay when I have the time and when I know I'll be working the same venue over and over. For a single gig at an unknown location I try if time permits.

In the picture above you see a sub and midhigh 5ms out of alignment at the 100hz crossover point. You'll see a 12db drop at 100hz and the big hole it makes around the crossover frequency. I had a big write up with all the other pictures but when HC changed around it was lost. This is the only picture that remains.

To delay or not or if you feel its worth it or not only you'll know after trying it. Some guitar players tune their guitars all night long and others not so much.

Dookietwo

 

[twostone]

Thought I'd chime in and thank everybody for their input and didn't need any delay that I could tell since the subs were only a foot in front of the tops and when I fired up the reference music and walk around the seated area and couldn't tell if there was delay which I'm sure there was but nothing I could detect.

 

Anyway just needed fans since right across the street behind the stage is 4 story building that blocks the sun out so no direct sunlight  and didn't need the thermal shades and just used fans as recommended which already  owned similar like fans. Anyway got a re-hire fo next month.