Not quite enough rig for the gig. Double up or new?

[LittleWiggler]

I am in a five piece Top40/Dance band - heavily tracked.  Lots of full frequency synth and sub bass/kick.  Dual female and male lead singers, bass, live acoustic drums, guitar/keys.  The entire band is on PSM 700 in ears and all instruments are direct (only noise from the stage is the drums).  We also have a dedicated sound person to drive the FOH.

The rig gets used for DJ gigs as well (I run the PA - my partner does the DJ'ing so no red light clip heads).

The mains consists of 4 JBL PRX 618 XLF's and 2 JBL PRX 635's.  This works well for rooms 1).  Cabs are up in the air where the top of the 15" on the 635 is 6-7' in the air.  I don't dare get them any higher for stability/drunk ratio reasons.

We have moved up to some 300-500 person rooms and are starting to drive the cabs into the limiters during the 3rd set and need more output when the # of people in the room maxes out.  Classic "not enough rig for the gig".

I am debating if it would be better to double up on the cabs while I can still get them (I found 4 XLF's and 2 635's in stock), or should I look at something else?  I know the subs will work well, just not sure about splaying 2 635's together a side due to combing.  

I also have 4 QSC K12's that are sitting unused since we moved to in-ears.  Maybe 6 or 8 XLF's and the 4 K12's?

My preference is to keep things powered for simplicity/modularity - but I know how to use a passive systems (DriveRack 260's and SRX / MacroTech 9000i's were part of my old PA).  Weight is also a concern.  Ground stack/poles/stands would be preferred, but I do have Thomas heavy duty 12" box truss that I could fly (it just adds to setup time and clients won't pay for the added cost).

Budget is $6500 (the 4 XLF's and 2 635's come in @ 6k).

For example, I thought about 4 VRX 923LAP's, but don't like the icepick nature and limited rigging options. It would also blow out my budget.  (7k just for used LAP's). 

Thoughts?

[RoadRanger]

6 XLF's would be significantly louder than 4 - I'd try that before going right to 8. "Combing" is more of a mental problem than actual . Two a side of 635, splayed only as needed to provide converage will be fine .

[dboomer]

Sounds like you are a good candidate to move up a class in speakers.  Generally I believe you will do better with a smaller number of higher quality speakers than a greater number of lesser performing ones.

[LittleWiggler]

I should have added - I cluster the 4 XLF's in the center front of the stage .

[LittleWiggler]

 

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dboomer wrote:

 

 

Sounds like you are a good candidate to move up a class in speakers.

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Suggestions?

[minn12]

 

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LittleWiggler wrote:

 

I am in a five piece Top40/Dance band - heavily tracked.  Lots of full frequency synth and sub bass/kick.  Dual female and male lead singers, bass, live acoustic drums, guitar/keys.  

The entire band is on PSM 700 in ears and all instruments are direct (only noise from the stage is the drums).  We also have a dedicated sound person to drive the FOH.

The rig gets used for DJ gigs as well (I run the PA - my partner does the DJ'ing so no red light clip heads).

The mains consists of 4 JBL PRX 618 XLF's and 2 JBL PRX 635's.  This works well for rooms 1).  Cabs are up in the air where the top of the 15" on the 635 is 6-7' in the air.  I don't dare get them any higher for stability/drunk ratio reasons.

We have moved up to some 300-500 person rooms and 

are starting to drive the cabs into the limiters during the 3rd set and need more output when the # of people in the room maxes out.  Classic "not enough rig for the gig".

 

I am debating if it would be better to double up on the cabs while I can still get them (I found 4 XLF's and 2 635's in stock), or should I look at something else?  I know the subs will work well, just not sure about splaying 2 635's together a side due to combing.  

 

I also have 4 QSC K12's that are sitting unused since we moved to in-ears.  Maybe 6 or 8 XLF's and the 4 K12's?

 

My preference is to keep things powered for simplicity/modularity - but I know how to use a passive systems (DriveRack 260's and SRX / MacroTech 9000i's were part of my old PA).  Weight is also a concern.  Ground stack/poles/stands would be preferred, but I do have Thomas heavy duty 12" box truss that I could fly (it just adds to setup time and clients won't pay for the added cost).

 

Budget is $6500 (the 4 XLF's and 2 635's come in @ 6k).

For example, I thought about 4 VRX 923LAP's, but don't like the icepick nature and limited rigging options. It would also blow out my budget.  (7k just for used LAP's). 

 

Thoughts?

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I have the same PRX system with the 635s. I've been pleasantly surprised at how much sound these can put out.  I ran these at an outdoor show last week, and even though I was tickling the limiters all night, it handled a pretty big area with no issues. I think you'd be happy sticking with the same boxes and just doubling up. 

If you haven't already, put your two tops together sometime, daisy chain them together, then start with one top only on with some music.  Get it pretty loud, then add in the second top.  That will show what two of these per side can really do.  Splay them a bit, and I don't think you'll have much of an issue with combing. Four tops and 6-8 subs should handle the shows you mention with no problem. 

 

[Pro Sound Guy]

I was at a fest recently, and I heard this system, and it sounded better then the main stage system.

For a portable system I was taken back at the accuracy, and articulation, and the tight knock you down punch.

Get a matched VRX system like in the pic and I guarantee you will have no problems with 500 or more people in a room, or outside.

 

[RoadRanger]

The VRX subs don't have any more output than the XLF's (same sub different cosmetics/size ?) - if 4 XLF's doesn't do it for them 4 VRX won't either. OTOH the VRX tops kick arse and sound awesome, two per side would do it .

[agedhorse]

PRX subs are fine with vrx tops

 

I would put 2 of your tops together and experiment. I don't think comb filtering will be much of a problem. Even covering much of the same area.

[agedhorse]

Don't, don't forget that this is a 3 way top with a high crossover freq. this allows for exploitation of the 1" exit geometry for (generally) better frequency response without having to worry about the challenges of lower frequency directivity. IMO, it's a special case that can represent the exception to the rule, especially for more near field, or shorter throw applications.

 

In a 2 way, high output application, I would agree with your comments though, and if the application was a longer throw then maybe a premium 2 way design might be a better choice.

[Unalaska]

Andy, would that mean that the jbl srx738 pr 4735 type box isn't as arrayable then or just that there is less advantage to arraying them.

[agedhorse]

I think arraying them may be fine depending on if it is a reasonable solution for the problem at hand. I would not recommend them for longer throw applications for example because they are not well suited to that application.

[Bugzie]

I've had the opportunity to use a rig that consisted of 2 SRX 722's over 4 SRX 718's per side at a half dozen street festivals. I'm guessing that doubling up what you have would be quite similar, but Andy can comment on that. That being said, I would die a happy man if I owned that rig. I can't imagine ever needing more. I agree with your assesment of the VRX boxes in that they scream and need to be properly processed or the highs can burn your ears. Being able to scale what you have is convienent as hell. It also opens up the ability to rent what you aren't going to be using on any night.

[witesol]

Are you running out of top cab headroom? I've run into a similar situation with my HPR153i over 2x 181 subs rig. I've done plenty of gigs where it wasn't enough rig yet it kept its composure. I think the PRX are actually louder than the qsc, but the specs say different. Anyhow, I always ran out of top cab, vocals, instruments, snare and drums. I contemplated adding more, tested a bit. The problem for me was I wanted more going in the same direction rather than spreading it wider with a fraction more going forward. Outside probably not an issue as much but inside you're often trying to keep sound from splashing off the side walls. Adding two more tops might not get the HF out to the back any better

 

I kept the QSC rig as is. One srx725 over a 728 sub kills the powered rig but its a different set of concerns amp racks xover, lifting, getting the right height, etc. obviously with the active rig you can leave a few racks at home. I love being able to tale the qsc rig and the presonus 1602 to gigs. Easy, fast, simple.

 

There are also basic considerations as to how loud you want your gigs. Touching the limiters on your biggest gigs could be just fine unless you've gotten complaints or truly know its pretty weak out there.

[RoadRanger]

I sometimes think folks forget that the faders go both ways and that you can bring something "up" in the mix by bringing other things "down". Nobody is really going to notice if your rig is 3 db softer than you'd like as long as you know how to mix within it's limits .

A single RCF 310A is rated at 95 db at 130 feet which is plenty loud for most outdoor public live music events short of a ticketed reserved seating R&R concert - and personally I'd be fine with 95 db there too.

[jlb]

A couple clips from last nights rock show with about 450 in attendance. 2 SRX 715's/ 4 SRX 718's. Just enough rig to cover the entire crowd at rock volume levels. 

 

 

 

[JV90]

But besides the X over cut toward the Subs, this is not a volumen matter too? I mean? When I use my active subs, I've always use them at full volumen with the proper X over cut, but on the tops which are a 12" active cabinet as well I have to lower their volumen over 2 o'clock (normally I'll use them without the Subs at 3 o'clock position), if I do the 3 o'clock position with the Subs, the tops would sound louder that the Subs..... Is this some correct or normal form in a pa gear?

[JV90]

Maybe this is something that Chirovette is having with, volumes over the active cabinets?

[Miko Man]

JV90, I tend to run the level of my PRX618sxlf at a higher level than the PRX612m top in order to get a pleasing balance. As a starting point, I'm usually about +3 on the subs level setting, compared to the level setting on the tops that are pole mounted on the sub. (Using a rock n roll CD as my reference point; it may vary with program material.) From my somewhat limited experience, that is a reasonably common thing to do. CV, you might try taking a favorite recording that you know well and play with levels to see what "sounds right" to you. Mark C.

[JV90]

Thanks Miko Man, and Jlb, you are right, my mistake noted the proper term is gain not volumen, however? You said that you put the gains at the same level in the Subs and on the tops, but did you've ever encountered that you'll need more bass in your method?

[TheDoctorMo]

I have four XLFs (two per side).  For a pair of XLFs, I have one B212 top.  The subs run wide open.  The tops run about halfway, give or take a little tweak to balance the speakers.

When outside, I may boost the tops just a bit to gain some distance.

We always get compliments on how crisp and clean our sound is.