Need advice on going to in ear monitors

[FDB]

Hi, I'm a guitar player/singer in a four piece cover band, we are thinking of going to in ears.I'm going direct with an ElevenRack for guitar and we use an iPad for intros and loops. I'm wondering what equipment I'd need to buy to be able to rehearse with and dial in each persons mix and then use at gigs. We typically use the same sound provider who gives us four individual mixes thru floor monitors.

[fishmanrod]

Usual, answer, that depends. A good deal of it depends on how fussy you and your band mates are, and what your expecations are.

 

For gig situations, not much. If your sound provider is already providing you with four individual mixes, all you need for each musician is a transmitter and a belt pack and ear phones. The output of the monitor channel goes into the transmitter, which sends the signal to the receiver which amplifies it for your ears.

 

I use the Shure PSM200 system, and it's pretty good and also reliable. The stock headphones are OK, but you can purchase upgraded phones with molded ear pieces if you want. The secret to good sound with in-ears is a good seal in the ear: without that it's not good. I still use the stock earbuds they came with, and the replacable foam sleeves. I play bass and sing backup and it works for me. I no longer bring any amp to a gig!

 

Now a caution: it takes a while to get used to them. It took me a month, combination of getting the ear fit right and getting used to the slightly isolated feeling, and also getting the mix right. In the end I found a great deal of time spent of messing with the mix made a huge difference and made me very happy once dialed in right.

 

Second caution, warn your sound provider about it: s/he may not be happy about the time spent screwing with each individual mix so you are all happy. In my old band we used the same board (mine) and set up the same way all the time, so even though the room mix changed, the in ear mix did not, generally, so in 5 mintues we could have all the in ear stage mixes set up and be happy. Room mix took the usual time.

 

The other nice thing is in a rehearsal sitation you can run your stuff (vox mic and instrument) through the Shure transmixer and get lots of YOU, and the rest of the band as bleed through. Takes some screwing around to get that right, but it can work ok. There is also a lapel mic you can buy for the Shure so you get your stuff through the transmitter plus ambient from the lapel mic, so you can hear the room. For a person with one input (ie, vox only, non singing guitarist), you can put the whole band from your board in one input, and YOU in the other, and dial up all the MORE ME you want, to the limit of the equipment.

 

If you want a better mix in your ears for rehearsal, then that takes a bit more equipment.

 

If you have a board in your rehearsal hall, it will need four prefader monitor outputs, one for each dude, unless you guys can share mixes. Sometimes a drummer and bass player can share mixes OK, but usually a vocalist cannot, because they blow everyone elses head off when they sing.

 

Another caution, drummers are not crazy about in ears because they can't hear the kick very well. I had the kick totally cranked for my drummer and he was never super happy with his ear mix. Could get everything else OK, but never the kick. That might mean he would need to upgrade to a dual driver earphone (up to $400) or a butt kicker that straps to his drum throne so he can FEEL the kick. Again $400 or so. The other option is to just have the usual monitor stack for the drummer. The in ears do save your hearing a lot, and with the stack you get lots of feel.

 

Finally, double most everything if you want to run stereo in your ears, and maybe tripple the cost for the transmitter and belt pack. Some people swear by it, and go to the effort of setting up ambient mics on the sides of the stage to catch the room sound and audience sound. I think this is way overkill for nearly every situation except full time pro touring musicians. That is MHO.

 

Street cost for a PSM200 complete system is about 600 at musicians friend. You could probably find a deal or used for less. About the cost of a good powered floor wedge, essentially.

 

And do I like mine? I will NEVER go back to playing live with my regular band without them.

 

Can you rent for a month and see if you like them, or buy just the headphones and borrow/rent the rest of the system? Some people HATE them. FYI. Cheers and good luck!

[Axisplayer]

 

I'm wondering what equipment I'd need to buy to be able to rehearse with and dial in each persons mix and then use at gigs.

 

 

If you mean, set up a mix at rehearsal and then take that mix with you, you need the exact same mics and console at practice that your provider furnishes available to you. A change in mic will generally change your gain, which then changes your aux send levels, which then changes your mix. If you want to get mixes at practice that go out with you, you need to build those mixes as you will see them on stage. We used two matched digital consoles: one at practice, and one for the show. Set everything at practice, save it to computer, dump that computer to the stage setup, and we were done. Without digital, not that easy, but similar methodology.

[kmart]

"Another caution, drummers are not crazy about in ears because they can't hear the kick very well."

 

Que?

 

I'm a drummer, and I hear my kick perfectly fine...and don't have one bit of drums coming through my monitor mix...

[ckcondon]

 

"Another caution, drummers are not crazy about in ears because they can't hear the kick very well." Que? I'm a drummer, and I hear my kick perfectly fine...and don't have one bit of drums coming through my monitor mix...

 

 

Curious how you have your iem mix set up. I have everything mic'ed but still have a good bit of kick in my mix. Fully isolated custom molds and I build my mix like I'm listening to a CD. The whole band with me just a tad louder.

How do you run yours?

[kmart]

 

Curious how you have your iem mix set up. I have everything mic'ed but still have a good bit of kick in my mix. Fully isolated custom molds and I build my mix like I'm listening to a CD. The whole band with me just a tad louder. How do you run yours?

 

 

Custom fit buds.

 

I get all 4 vox, both guitars, bass, keys, sequences, electronic percussion and click.

No drums at all in the monitor mix for anybody; enough gets picked up with 4 vocal mics on stage as it is.

 

Even with custom fit buds, I can feel/hear more than enough drums from being right on top of them.

[ChiroVette]

Hey folks, I have a question on this topic: I am completely and totally ignorant about IEM's, but they seem like an amazing way to get stage volumes under control and give all the musicians a personal mix. So my obviously, is I would like to know if there is some kind of an "Idiot's Guide" to IEM's in this forum somewhere? Because I don't even know the first thing about this. For instance, fishmanrod recommends the Shure PSM200's, so I just looked them up on Amazon and got several different products with that model number. What do I need? Where do I start? Where can I research this further? Thanks!

[TimmyP]

The 200s sound better than most folks give them credit for, however I would not get anything that does not have stereo or 'more me' capability.

 

The Sennheiser 'Included Free' buds are crap, and I expect the same of the others (for emergency use only). Too bad the M-Audio are gone - the IE10 is darned good and was only $100.

[ChiroVette]

TimmyP, in order for me to even consider IEM's they would have to have the same functionality as ANY wedge controlled with Aux sends. In other words, if I have four IEM's, say, then I would expect that my sound man should be able to control the levels of EVERY single voice and every single instrument (in other words every single channel) with the corresponding Aux control of all the strips. Otherwise, unless I am missing something, why do away with wedges in the first place?

[Miko Man]

CV, unless I am missing Timmy P's point, I think that he is suggesting that a stereo IEM is often mixed so that the musician has their own voice/instrument in one ear's mix, and whatever else in that person's mix in the other ear. Getting "more me" is then just a matter of adjusting your own beltpack's levels and balance, without having to ask the board operator for "more me" in the monitor mix. Mark C.

[jamesewells]

I can start a new thread for this, if necessary, but I thought I would start here. I just picked up an AT M2 on Ebay to try out. Our stage rig is 4 powered wedges with separate mixes from a MixWiz. We all sing. I realize the easy way is to run mono and plug the aux send from the board into the M2 transmitter but I'm thinking a better way to adjust my personal vocal volume without having to go to the board would to run my vocal mic into the M2 transmitter and connect the transmitter out to the channel strip on the mixer and connect the aux send to the other M2 channel. Is the the way IEM's are normally set up? There's nothing in the manual that shows it hooked up this way. I feel dumb. Thanks!

[tcrewsman]

Alright, I'm going to ask for a little help here. Been running my IEMs now for a while since our last thread i posted and i am loving them. My question is with running stereo. I've read on here about putting guitar and vox in one ear and rest of band needed in the other. How would i go about doing this and still be able to individually control the guitar and vocal volume? Or i guess all together, how to run it successfully. Still running the Galaxy AS900. Been a analog guy for as long as i can remember.

 

I guess i am just wondering how to "wire" it all up so to speak.

 

Thanks.

[RoadRanger]

Alright, I'm going to ask for a little help here. Been running my IEMs now for a while since our last thread i posted and i am loving them. My question is with running stereo. I've read on here about putting guitar and vox in one ear and rest of band needed in the other. How would i go about doing this and still be able to individually control the guitar and vocal volume?

You need to use two auxes and mix the left and right separately.

[RoadRanger]

I can start a new thread for this, if necessary, but I thought I would start here. I just picked up an AT M2 on Ebay to try out. Our stage rig is 4 powered wedges with separate mixes from a MixWiz. We all sing. I realize the easy way is to run mono and plug the aux send from the board into the M2 transmitter but I'm thinking a better way to adjust my personal vocal volume without having to go to the board would to run my vocal mic into the M2 transmitter and connect the transmitter out to the channel strip on the mixer and connect the aux send to the other M2 channel. Is the the way IEM's are normally set up? There's nothing in the manual that shows it hooked up this way. I feel dumb. Thanks!

Your mic probably doesn't have enough output to do that. I've done something similar when I had to share a mix and wanted to hear my bass - I "Y"d the output from my wireless to feed the board and the second input of my AS900.

[kmart]

 

Otherwise, unless I am missing something, why do away with wedges in the first place?

 

1) Clamp-down on stage overall volume.

2) Minimize occurrences (and potentially likelihood) of feedback.

3) Maximize useable space on stage.

4) Ensure performers can hear critical items (click, their own voice, etc.)

5) Minimize wear and tear on vocals.

6) Make it easier for vocalists to stay in key

7) Etc.

 

There are TONS of reasons to go IEMs, even if one has to share mixes with other bandmates, or you don't have the ability to get as granular with the monitor mix as one could in a perfect setting.

 

There are also tons of reasons not to go IEMs, of course...

It's a personal preference thing, and it takes some getting used to, but even if I wasn't playing with a click now, I'd prefer it.

[fishmanrod]

 

"Another caution, drummers are not crazy about in ears because they can't hear the kick very well." Que? I'm a drummer, and I hear my kick perfectly fine...and don't have one bit of drums coming through my monitor mix...

 

 

Maybe it's the drummers I have worked with. Once the ear buds are in they say they can't here their kit as well. For a while I was doing a full mic up of the drums for rehearsal, kick snare, three toms, plus to overheads AND a condenser on the high hat. Spent an hour mixing and reworking till he was happy with the mix. He still complained that the kick did not do it for him. I was listening to the same mix and though it was spectacular. Similar complaint from another drummer I worked with. Maybe it's my mixing? And to top that off, both of them were REALLY loud players. Which makes even less sense. All I can say is I am reporting my experiences, so I thought I would relay the caution. Everyone seems to have a different reaction to in ears.

[fishmanrod]

 

You need to use two auxes and mix the left and right separately.

 

 

Yep. So with a four person band you need 8 pre fader auxes if everyone gets their own mix. Seems a little much to me.

 

To me, in order of goodness, and improvement over floor wedges

 

floor wedges for vocals with 1 monitor mix for all are a 1.

wedges with individual mixes (and I find a lot of sound guys who get pissed when you ask for this) are a 2

In ears with your vocals in them instead of wedges are a 4

In ears with your vocals and instrument are a 4.5

With your own mix of the entire band, with more me control or a helpful sound guy, big jump, this is a 7.

With ambient mics as well, an 8

Stereo mix with band in one ear and me in the other, for me this is about a 6, but others seem to think its an 8 or 9.

 

The cost of going to the stereo mix is quite substantial, too. The transmitter is more expensive, but the REAL cost is the dough for the mixer with that number of aux sends. Maybe something like the presonus, they have lots of aux sends (don't recall how many) but right now only 16 channel version. So to me, the benefit of going to stereo for a small act doing bars and local touring is not worth the cost. I wonder if the matrix output on some mixers would do it, some of them are stereo? The are mono on my A and H, but I use them for in ears with one very large band I work with, give the guy a general band mix plus a him. Seems to work, but not stereo.

 

I think overall the one really big downfall of inears is that you go from being barely able to hear your screaming vocals over the floor wedges, to oh my I cannot hear the nuance of the chinese crash in song 3. I really noticed this with my band mates over several bands. Rehearsal sound was AWFUL but we would put up with it and not really fix it, but once we had inears they were always asking for more me less him can you eq that differently, not punchy enough, more reverb, yada yada yada. They got really really fussy and wanted CD quality in the in ears. It's live music, in ears are MUCH better than floor wedges, but they are not and will never be CD quality without a great deal of effort and gear, if at all.

[kmart]

 

Maybe it's the drummers I have worked with. Once the ear buds are in they say they can't here their kit as well.

 

 

Well no sh&t!!!

 

The point would be to condition one's mind to simply get used to not hearing the kit (including kick drum) as LOUDLY, however, since everything else running into IEMs should be able to be heard cleanly at much lower volumes, that really shouldn't be an issue.

 

My suspicion would be that those drummers you mention didn't have a true seal, thus minimizing/eliminating a fair amount of the low end one can get from in-ears.

Without a true seal, that's gone.

 

I don't know...it's never been an issue for me in the least to not have my drums in my IEm mix. I just make sure everything else is mixed appropriately on top of the drums...maybe the challenge you face is that you're wanting your drums to be more present than everything else...I built my mix from a vocals first/foremost point.

[ChiroVette]

Hi, again, just wanted to re-state the question I posted above:

 

 

I would like to know if there is some kind of an "Idiot's Guide" to IEM's in this forum somewhere? Because I don't even know the first thing about this. For instance, fishmanrod recommends the Shure PSM200's, so I just looked them up on Amazon and got several different products with that model number. What do I need? Where do I start? Where can I research this further? Thanks!

 

[kmart]

 

Hi, again, just wanted to re-state the question I posted above:

 

 

Perhaps you might want to look at some place like Shure.com as opposed to Amazon for starters...

 

And do some searching on this forum; there is ample information on the subject: a little over two years ago, I'd never once used or had need for IEMS. I came here based on a google search, found a ton of info, asked a few questions and within a few weeks was more than set. I don't feel I made a bad choice or struggled with the transition to IEMS in the least.

[Axisplayer]

Four person band can get a decent mix with 6 aux. Since everyone needs to hear most everything (because with buds in, you won't hear what isn't in the mix) you can start with one stereo mix using 2 aux to make a representation similar to FOH. Then you also send each person one aux with just their vocal and or instrument. They use that as a more me mix of everything THEY do. This is six auxs in use, stereo mix, and everyone gets a full featured more me mix. Works fairly well with limited aux channels.

[RoadRanger]

Four person band can get a decent mix with 6 aux. Since everyone needs to hear most everything (because with buds in, you won't hear what isn't in the mix) you can start with one stereo mix using 2 aux to make a representation similar to FOH. Then you also send each person one aux with just their vocal and or instrument. They use that as a more me mix of everything THEY do. This is six auxs in use, stereo mix, and everyone gets a full featured more me mix. Works fairly well with limited aux channels.

How do you take a stereo mix and add that "more me" mono mix to it?

[Axisplayer]

Sorry, it is late and I didn't get that right (tough day....the rented Penske box truck from the promoter decided to drive over the front end of my Dodge Ram today and took out the fender, headlight, and bumper making too sharp a turn in front of my parked truck.....I am tired and fuzzy.) I meant 5 channels of aux. My M3's personal mix setting allows each input to go to both ears in mono. I make one mix of the band with everything. The second channel is the more me. Both channels go to both ears as a dual mono type mix. I daisy chain channel A from unit to unit, and each B channel is a unique feed.

 

Sorry....I plead tough day, and my mind isn't here tonight. I am far off in STATE FARM land. Guess I should just stay off here until tomorrow. I have two more shows this weekend with the same performers. Have no idea how the gear/trailer is getting there tomorrow or Sunday, and I need to be leaving by 1:00 tomorrow afternoon in somebody else's truck pulling my trailer or the show won't happen....should be a fun morning.

[TimmyP]

If you make a stereo multi-splitter, and also a passive summing box for each member, you can feed each member the stereo mix and a mono (or second stereo) mix. A little messy cable-wise, but it would work just fine.

[ChiroVette]

 

Four person band can get a decent mix with 6 aux. Since everyone needs to hear most everything (because with buds in, you won't hear what isn't in the mix) you can start with one stereo mix using 2 aux to make a representation similar to FOH. Then you also send each person one aux with just their vocal and or instrument. They use that as a more me mix of everything THEY do. This is six auxs in use, stereo mix, and everyone gets a full featured more me mix. Works fairly well with limited aux channels.

 

 

Sorry about your hard day, Axis! Probably a dumb question, but here goes:

 

If someone was using a mixer like the Presonus 24 channel, with TEN Auxes (well, 12 if you count the two for the effects) then that would leave 10 Auxes to dedicate to monitors, right? Obviously, assuming I wasn't using Auxes for anything else, like extra effects and such. So that would allow for FIVE fully stereo monitor mixes for an IEM setup? Additionally, I remember reading somewhere that if a band wants to use IEM's that a separate monitor mixer, apart from the regular FOH mixer, is recommended. However, I have no idea if this was because most boards (analog at least) don't offer you TEN full Auxes.