New Speakers Smoking Again! Please Help!

[333president]

Some of you might remember me from some threads last week. I had a pair of dual 15" JBL speakers hooked up to an XTI-4000. One of the speakers started smoking after about an hour of use. I knew these speakers weren't great, so I figured I just overpowered them.

I came on here for advice and a few guys recommended the QSC KW series. The idea of active speakers was appealing so I didn't have to risk "over powering and blowing the new speakers".

I got the QSC speakers today and hooked up 2-KW153's and 2-KW181's. I had the gain turned up about 70%. Within 2 minutes one of the subs started smoking!

I feel like I am in the twilight zone. I am kind of a noob with live sound, but I've owned p/a's for years. I've been a drummer and guitar player for a long time and I also used to DJ. I've never had problems like this before!

I have the equiptment at my house. But purchased it for live bands to play out of during work functions that I host at our office.

Here's everything I had hooked up to test these speakers:

1. MP3 player 1/8th" into dual RCA in 16 Channel Tascam M-2516

2. Dual XLR out of Mixer into Sabine GRQ2 3122 (EQ/Compressor)

3. Dual XLR out of Sabine into Input A of KW 153, Output A of KW 153 to Input A of KW181 (repeat for right side)

4. All 4 powered speakers are plugged into one Furman Power Conditioner.

 

A few things to note:

* This is the second time I've had a set of speakers smoking!

* I had the gain up about 70% - the speakers sounded really good.

* The speakers have an LED limit light on the front. I never saw this come and I was watching!

* Nothing in the chain was clipping

* Settings on the back of all speakers were identical. Normal polarity, flat eq, same gain levels.

* The mixer and cables were used for 10 years no problems with 15" cheap Cerwin Vega speakers.

* The Sabine is a new addition. Not sure if this could be the problem?

* I had all 4 active speakers plugged into a Furman Power Conditioner. Could this be the problem?

* The electrical outlet used was recently installed. Could there be a problem with the power? 

 

ANY input would be helpful! Thanks guys!

[WynnD]

I've been wondering if too much power demand from a single outlet might contribute, but that should also trip the circuit breaker. So I'm guessing that's not the problem. Hate to suggest it, but have you had your hearing checked lately? Maybe you have a lot more hearing loss than you think you do. You might be pushing this stuff way harder than it was designed to. Or you might be buying the sales pitch for equipment that isn't up to the job. (That doesn't sound likely.) If you're having a run of bad luck, it's a very bad run. The repair bills must be getting to you by now.

[333president]

You're not kidding Wynn! Thanks for the great out of the box suggestions. This is the kind of advice I need!

I mean, I think my hearing is good (I think anyway). But in either case, I had the gain up 70% on the speakers and the clip/limit indicator never even blinked on for any of the 4 speakers (and I did have them enabled to blink on the front for limit). They were turned up to a decent level, but they weren't super loud.

As far as the power, I am wondering if that does have something to do with it? I just had that receptacle installed. But I also agree, if it was too much, it seems like a circuit would blow. Or at least the lights would flicker or something.

I did have them plugged into a Furman PC, which I just learned isn't a great idea. But I still don't see how that could be the problem. And that didn't pop the internal breaker either.

I am just at such a loss with this situation.

I mean, if there was a problem, wouldn't the speakers just blow? Why the smoke? And it's not just a little, it's a fair amount. I've probably played through 100 speakers before that were so loud they were blasting my face off, and I never saw a speaker smoke! I have these speakers turned up, but, they're not blasting.

I've used the mixer, MP3 player (iPhone) and the cables with my previous speakers. I had them for many years without problems. So I don't think it's that. The only thing that's new is the power outlet, the Sabine EQ and the 4 speakers. 

If you or anyone else has any ideas, please keep them coming. Thanks for everything guys.

[JV90]

I'm sorry to hear that you had a problem with your new gear; what about the gains over your mixer? Input gains maybe by mistake you've got a clipping signal over the channel that did the burn over the sub, a guess....

[Miko Man]

It is possible that if this was the first time the subs had been turned on and used, the one sub may have had a defective part in it, or it suffered mechanical damage during shipment. That seems as plausible an explanation as any of the other suggestions. Mark C.

[333president]

Good guess JV, that's a great suggestion. Both the gain and fader were up about 50% of the way though. All yellow on the meter! That mixer is pretty sensitive too, it has a good limit led on each channel that lights up when pushing too hard as well as the meter for L/R main outs. So I don't think thats it. Unless something weird happens because I had the audio running out of my iPhone. But I used to do that with my old speakers with no problems.

Let me run this past you pros.....

That Sabine unit is an EQ/Compressor and Feedback Eliminator. The FBX was on. The compressor was active, but I don't think it was over compressing. The bottom threshold led would just flicker on once in a while. BUT, the eq settings were boosted ALL the way up on the lows. BUT I am 80% sure, I had the EQ on "bypass", which I thought I did. I guess it's possible the EQ was active. So here's the question, if that EQ was active, with the bottom lows boosted all the way up.....would that be enough to make the speakers smoke? Keeping in mind, from what I could tell in the 30 seconds I had audio on, everything sounded clear. Although it's possible the tops were masking the bottoms so I couldn't hear how bad the subs sounded. Though I still didn't see the limit come on and I was watching like a hawk. 

Could that have been the problem or would there have been some other indicator that something was wrong? It seems like a step penalty to pay, to smoke your subs within 30 seconds because you had them turned up 70% of the way with the lows accidentally boosted! I am sure I've made more careless mistakes than that in my 20 years of making music and I've never had this kind of outcome, lol.

I am starting to think it would have been less expensive and quicker to take a few semesters on live sound, lol.

So was the Sabine EQ the problem? A cord? The power outlet?

FML.

[Tomm Williams]

The common demoninator is the amp.......yes?

[Pro Sound Guy]

Plug the self powered loudspeakers straight into the wall

Do not use Furman power conditioners for power amps

Plug all your other gear into your Furman but not the power amps, or powered speakers.

 

[StratGuy22]

Take some video next time. Once you get set up, take a quick video of the works.

 

 

 

[nchangin]

And change your name on here to "upinsmoke"

[333president]

I keep going back to that Sabine Graphi-Q (EQ/Comp/EFX).

 

Its the only thing I've added to my rig since I started smoking two different brands of speakers.

 

There was a lift/gnd button on the back that was popped out into the lift position. Plus the lows on the eq were accidentally boosted.

 

Anyone think that could have caused this problem?

 

If not, I am just going to rule it out as defective from the factory and get a replacement. Thanks.

[happwith12strin]

     I think you have a safety issue here, along with the fire and gear damage this whole thing sounfs like an electrocution hazard  

I would not use the rig again until you isolate the problem.

  I like the outlet tester.

   You could do an ac leakdown test on all the gear suspected. But since you do not have the gear to do the test,

    I would suggest a pair of rubber gloves a rubber mat to stand on and a volt ohm meter. Check for voltage on each output plugin jack..both ac and dc voltage.

 Another thing you could do by your self is to take the gear partially apart and look for bulging capacitors and burnt resistors, with no power. Also with the covers off the gear just smell.  Take a look at badcaps.org for pictures of bad capacitors.   Could be a bad capacitor in a lot of places including the speaker crossover.

   Once you find the piece of bad gear let a qualified service center fix it or junk it and buy another.

 I dont like the ground lift. Any lightning storms in your area?

[happwith12strin]

 You might take a look at your house electrical system.. ground wire..dont touch it..see if it is connected...use a wooden stick or something rubber to move the grass to look.

[333president]

That's awesome advise Happ! I actually own a volt meter, but I don't know how to use it.

I'll research the web as well. But is there any tips you can give me on how to use? Do I touch one red and one black to each output? Also, this dial has a million settings. Any advice on what position to set the volt meter? Thank you SO much!

[agedhorse]

 

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happwith12strin wrote:

 

 

     I think you have a safety issue here, along with the fire and gear damage this whole thing sounfs like an electrocution hazard  

 

I would not use the rig again until you isolate the problem.

 

  I like the outlet tester.

 

   You could do an ac leakdown test on all the gear suspected. But since you do not have the gear to do the test,

 

    I would suggest a pair of rubber gloves a rubber mat to stand on and a volt ohm meter. Check for voltage on each output plugin jack..both ac and dc voltage.

 

 Another thing you could do by your self is to take the gear partially apart and look for bulging capacitors and burnt resistors, with no power. Also with the covers off the gear just smell.  Take a look at badcaps.org for pictures of bad capacitors.   Could be a bad capacitor in a lot of places including the speaker crossover.

 

   Once you find the piece of bad gear let a qualified service center fix it or junk it and buy another.

 

 I dont like the ground lift. Any lightning storms in your area?

---

 

Really bad advice IMO... and much of it makes no sense whatsoever. Please ignore it for your own safety.

Find a professional (one who knows what they are doing, not some internet know it all sorta-kinda) to check your electrical for proper voltage UNDER A LOAD, and specifically to look for a loose neutral on the panelboard bus.

Otherwise, work with QSC to determine what's going on. You mentioned something about smoking the QSC speakerS, did you damage more than one of them??? Did you have the speaker inputs set to line level and not mic level? (I would assume so because it would have sounded like sh*t otherwise).

I wonder if there is an RF oscillation within the Sabine unit, this could certainly cause problems under the right conditions. This would be my first suspect (given the symptoms on 2 unrelated speaker/amp setups).

 

[agedhorse]

With this additional information, I would not use the Sabine unit until it is thoroughly checked out. Maybe Don has an idea or suggestion about this?

[Telecruiser]

>>

 

What size breaker is assigned to that receptacle? Have you checked that? Is there a chance that the amp is asking for more current and a larger than required breaker is saying, "OK, here ya go".

[agedhorse]

Good plan IMO.

[333president]

Thanks to everyone on this board. Great advice Andy for telling me to post something on the forum seeking someone local. Turns out, Scott.........lives 4 houses down from me! I can see his house from my driveway. What are the odds!

I am excited to meet my new favorite neighbor tomorrow and yes, the fridge is stocked! Thanks for everyone's help!

[JV90]

A chicken soup would be fine for me 333 president instead of a beer,

[JV90]

Je je je, just kidding

[StratGuy22]

That's pretty neat. What are the odds!!!

 

 

[RoadRanger]

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StratGuy22 wrote:

That's pretty neat. What are the odds!!!

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Yah, that close is pretty amazing. I do wish they fixed this *bleep* software to display location - it's really tough to help someone out when you don't even know what country they are in. They should also have a special symbol field so we can tell if you're a guitarist or drummer or DJ or other unfortunate so we can make allowances  - or a bass player or keyboardist so that the proper weight can be given to your priceless advice . I'm in a fairly populous area so I think there are maybe half a dozen regulars here within an hour of me . We do loan and sell stuff to each other and otherwise help each other out - mostly off-list.

[Audiopile]

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333president wrote:

One of the speakers started smoking after about an hour of use.

* This is the second time I've had a set of speakers smoking!

ANY input would be helpful! Thanks guys!

---

I'll suggest you really should nip that in the bud... as smoking in public seems to be fairly unacceptable in some areas. 

Sorry about that... I couldn't resist.

[StratGuy22]

please have the peope running this nickel & dime puppey show fix the following on mobile:

 

img tag

Quote tag

Video tag

 

And tell that Phil guy to take off his shades when he's inside. It look silly.