Need advise optimizing audio reproduction of "backing tracks" when used with live performance

[BonDarker]

Greeting

New kid on the block, here...

 

I've decided to dive right in with troubling question I'm trying to find suggestions and solutions to.  Forgive me if I miss some aspects of HC protocol but I hope you'll guide me as needed.  I did look around for some previous thread on this subject

[witesol]

Honestly, none of those solutions are the bet way to go. Exciters, no. Leave them at home or on Craigslist! Comps...no, unless you have really widely varying dynamics to your tracks. Eq. Not really. Unless you mixed them poorly. I work with lots of acts using tracks. Put the monitor closer, use iem.

 

Are the tracks not running through the mains? If your stage volume is too high you could have trouble...with many things besides the tracks.

 

Remember that the backing tracks, if played from a real guy on stage would probably need to be sent to the monitors and mains, but not at the level on Stage to play mixed to the audience with everything else...unless you are playing small club gigs.

 

Are you cueing off the tracks? If you are getting tempo and groove cues from the tracks then you need some click track or percussive something in the drummers ear. You probably need that anyhow jut for arrangement. Keep in mind what the stage volume would be for a real player playing whatever it is on your tracks. Often times you don't need everything blaring lay loud onstage. You know the arrangement, let the "player" do their thing

[DanBAP]

 

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witesol wrote:

 

 Comps...no, unless you have really widely varying dynamics to your tracks. Eq. Not really.

Unless you mixed them poorly.

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This. You recorded and mixed them poorly, and/or you don't have enough PA for backing tracks to compete with your stage volume.

 

I wouldn't try to fix these problems with outboard processing at the show; I'd fix them in the tracks themselves.

 

-Dan.

[BonDarker]

witesol

 

Many thanks for jumping in on my issue.  

Consider the proposed added items nixed!  No Comp, no EQ... I'll forget that notion...

 

Yes, we are playing small venues.  Yes, tracks are running through mains.  Yes, on the songs we use backing tracks with we do "cue" from beginning to end

[agedhorse]

Try mixing the tracks without leveling, which removes some of the dynamics.

[dboomer]

Could be any number of things. Could be bad tracks.

 

Could be that your system does not allow the full dynamics of the recording to develop with enough level. I could tell you that for a fact I could easily outplay a drum kit than a recording with a high dynamic range played through a pair of g2s. Imagine you played the drums as a track through that same system. I think you'd end up with the same problem.

 

Could also be that your perception through your IEMs is not correct. What are you using? If they are hard wired then it shouldn't be a problem but if its wireless then I expect that you either have a compression issue or a low dynamic range problem with them that is making them worse.

 

Ways around it? Well exciters do this exact thing and raise perceived dynamic range. You could also use some mastering on your tracks and trade dynamics for "loudness". I'm pointing out differences in "mastering" tools and using your compressors. There is a difference.

[witesol]

ok. to clarify, and questions:

you guys are on IEM

drummer is on a wedge monitor

your PA is EONs with one sub. mains on sticks in front of the band. sometimes bigger JBLs for mains

tracks cued through IEM by you two and in the wedge at the drummer

you are having trouble hearing the tracks in your IEM

The drummer is also having trouble hearing the tracks?

I'm confused by your mention of EONs behind the band. Do you have additional PA pointing forward upstage?

You have this problem with every track?

 

I don't understand why you cant get the tracks in your IEM to be heard. What else is in your mix? I could understand if the drummer is overpowering his monitor. Is he wanting his own drums in the monitor, like kick drum? ...or do you not even mic the drums?

My hunches would be:

the band is playing too loud

The tracks are not mixed properly. Is there a click track on the tracks or are you just cueing off the parts? Most of the bands I deal with that have tracks mix them in dual mono, one side is a click/metronome the other is music/percussion etc. Generally the drummer is the only one receiving the click/count off usually with an extra bar of clicks, and the band follows the drummer(hopefully). Is your drummer experienced with playing with click tracks? If not. and you're getting off the groove thinking the tracks need to be louder then forget all the advice and get a new drummer   In my experience, drummers used to playing with metronomes, click tracks or with studio experience need a lot less cue than inexperienced ones. 

If youve mixed your tracks by watching levels rather than simply listening you could have the balances off. In other words, it's more of a feel thing. Those damn fletcher munson curves can get you! The worst experiences I have with band tracks is when some individual element in the mix is way too prominent yet something like a horn line or background vocal is behind...so, I have to mix that track down or try and EQ something on the spot to remedy a poor mix. You have no soundman so getting the mix right is very important. Also if the tracks are not consistent level wise, you have to err on the side of how the loudest track plays and one that's 2-3 db down will dissappear into the stage volume. Often I mix an act that puts percussion/hand claps onto the tracks and hopes to groove along with that. 

 

the best way to balance the tracks is by mixing them during an actual rehearsal and tweak each track. 

 

 

[Pro Sound Guy]

Your system is not big enough to get enough gain over the stage volume/drums/guitar.

A good way to see this is have the drummer sit out on a tune.

Or just have the keyboard player on stage, and run the backing tracks and wala...no issue.

 

 

[BonDarker]

dboomer

 

Your suggestions are intriguing.  I get some of what you are saying but perhaps I'm loosing some in sentence structure.

RE your comment, "Could be that your system does not allow the full dynamics of the recording to develop with enough level."  How can I know?  I think I'm using pretty good gear, all be it the mixer has a few years on it.  

(stereo digital player, playing CD quality digital out 

[agedhorse]

I would recommend against using the daw and mixing tracks live. Too many other issues can arise that can turn a minor issue that you are now having into a much more inconvenient and embarrassing situation in front of the audience. Stability in a live environment is not one of most daw strongpoints.

 

Have you tried my original recommendation to back off on the tracks compression? You may need to go back to the original materials be wise once compressed you can not restore the missing dynamic range.

 

I suspect that you are looking too hard for a solution that may be more obvious than you realize.

[agedhorse]

Also, I think your comments towards Dan are uncalled for. I happen to agree with Dan in that the difference between doing it right and if coming off cheesy really does clearly separate the men from the boys. I works with some national acts that use backing tracks, and the amount if effort and expertise in their production are very, very obvious.