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Well, I did it...


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 Or I'm doing it.

 I'm scaling down my system. The SRX's are on the Bay and I've got some Yorkie's coming in.

 This will take me from 4 each SR4718x's and SR4722x's along with 2 QSC PLX3602's and 2 IPR 300's to 2 LS801p's and 2 EF500p's. Heavy boxes, but less hassle all around.

I've got a couple of questions for you that have these. I know that there's not a true crossover in the Yorkvilles, the EF500p's have a 100hz HPF and the LS801 has an adjustable HF rolloff. How effective are these? Or would I be better off using a Driverack and feeding the tops & bottoms seperately?

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The crossovers are fine in the boxes. I used to start with the subs 3 knobs at 12 o'clock and go from there. The Subs crossover is not defeatable so if you add another crossover your looking at some pretty steep slopes and there may be some ringing if if the sum of the two crossovers slopes becomes too steep. There is a built in nondefeatable Low Cut in the subwoofer as well. The 100hz low cut in the tops looks like any other 4th order slope you may find in any average crossover.

The subwoofer has a increase in output as the frequency rises. ( as do many others ) They do have quite a output! I'll put up a photo I took with the crossover frequency set all the way down, at 12 o'clock and all the way up. You can see the steep low cut and high cut filters. This was measured in my living room so please take it with a grain of salt!

York Test Crossover points.JPG

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So assuming I don't use the DR as a crossover, I'd still like to use it for some processing. I understand that if I pole mount the ef500's I should use a 3ms delay on them. Can I do this with a DRPA? Would I need to overlap a very steep crossover point just to seperate the freq'sso I could delay the HP?

 

Also, the EF500p's are HEAVY. Can they be safely mounted on the LS801p's with poles? I know they have pole sockets on them and they weigh 83 lbs. but I don't see any recommendations from Yorkville about this.

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No need at all for a driverack with a 801P/EF500P rig.

I have been running this system for over 3-years now just using the filters on the cabs, you will however need a EQ for a few simple cuts to smooth the system out. So if you want to use the driverack for a EQ fine, but dont use it for a cross over.

I set the sub filter at 90hz, set the shape dial at 12oclock. On the EF500P just set the filter to 100hz.

Depending on room, a -3 to -6db cut is needed at 80hz to smoothen out the sub, if not, depending on the room it will be boom'ish. Another -3 to -6db cut is needed at 400hz, this gets rid of the annoying honk sound from the EF500P. And then, I do a -3db cut at 5k, too my ears it smoothens out the horn nicely.

I run those settings in every room I have ever worked in, depending on crowd and room acoustics about the only change I ever make is to the 80hz slider on my EQ. When the room fills up you can put more of the 80hz back into the sub.

This system has incredible output, it does have one drawback however.. and no, it's not the weight of the cabinets (which doesn't bother me in the least) it is that the horn in the EF500P is only 60 degrees. I find in the wider rooms that I work in I have to crossfire the tops for the best coverage, it looks a little stupid, but it works well.

Also, if you don't have a set of real steel poles.. get some, the Yorkville steel poles work well. I would advise you to cut them down about 10 inches. This keeps them still at a nice height, but makes them safer and easier to get the 500P's on top of the sub.

I would also advise either getting padded covers for the tops or, screwing a board or plate over the control knobs. They are pretty flimsy and can get broken easily when moving/transporting them.

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Thanks Vinny. What about the 3ms delay I've read about? Do you not bother with it?

 And as far as the poles, I have a pair of K&M 21366's with the ring locks that work great with my SRx rig and are considerably more HD than the On Stage Stands poles I used to use. But their spec sheet rates them at 35KG max load. The EF500p's weigh in at 37.6 KG.

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You can always try the system using the onboard electronics and see if that's good enough. I was under the impression that the filters were defeatable on the newer yorkville products.

 

The other way to handle this is to use a dsp with individually configured output filters so that you can greatly overlap bands and rely on the speakers filters. Then you can apply delay etc. but that a more costly solution (dr-260) and probably not worth the time and effort in addition to cost.

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agedhorse wrote:

 

Mike- it would be the subs low pass filter and you would need to be at least an octave away from what's fixed on the box otherwise there will be interaction between the two filters.

DUH, my bad. HPF, LPF, whatever it takes :) ...So it would be nice to know the exact filters Yorkville is using in these boxes.

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agedhorse wrote:

To clarify with dookie's method, the crossover is not used with this test.

 

Mike- it would be the subs low pass filter and you would need to be at least an octave away from what's fixed on the box otherwise there will be interaction between the two filters.

You would want the built in High Cut crossover set at 100hz on the LS801p and the 100hz and below cut engaged on the EF500p when doing the test tone method. We want the phase of the crossovers to be included in this test.

The crossover in at least the EF500p appear to be 24db L/R filters. I did talk to Yorkville about the LS801P crossovers and I believe they said 48db Low Cut ( Maybe Bessel ) and aprox 24 db L/R High Cut in them. I measured the Slope in the EF500p low cut filter.

In the below picture I turned on the 100hz LOW CUT on in the EF500p. Did a measurement. Then turned off the filter and used 2 different crossover brandsCombined 0db at 250hz.JPG on on the same box as well. Both digital crossovers were set to 100hz with B/W 24db alignments. One of them was a DRPA. Care to guess which one is the EF500p low cut filter? I would venture to say its a 24db L/R alignment.

Dookietwo 

  

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I did this awhile back but wanted to put it up in case someone wanted to see it. I put 2 subs pointed at each other at the exact some level and signal with the measurement microphone centered between them. I then added delay to just one of them ( I won't be able to put up all the pictures on one reply so you may see a few replys )

2 subs in test.JPG

Next you'll see the output with just 1 sub turned on. Looking at the top of the picture at the information shown it is +6dbs at 81.3 hz. Single Sub + 6db.JPG

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Now I'll add just 3ms to 1 of the subs. You can see how 3 ms doesn't change the output much in the lowest of frequencies but it does have quite an effect on the higher frequencies. The higher frequencies are smaller in wave length so it takes less miss alignment to cause problems.1 sub 3ms delay added.JPG

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Now I'll add 6.1ms delay to the sub. You can see a massive drop in output at the 81.3 frequency point (about 21dbs ) but the higher and lower areas are not effected quite as bad. If this was your sub and mid high section you'd be in trouble.  The cancelation is all in the relationship to the wavelength size and its out of alignment.1 sub 6.1ms delay added.JPG

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Now I'll add 9.1 ms of delay. I'm getting close to 3/4 of a rotation of phase. You can see I'm within 3dbs of my starting point but because this is a larger delay it effects the lower frequenies more putting them out of alignment and its costing me output in that area1 sub 9.1ms delay added.JPG.

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Last I added 12.3ms to the sub. Close to 360 degrees of phase at the 81.3hz. At 81.3 hz the two subs are close to being in phase but they are 1 cycle off. ( This was the delay points available in unit I was using at this time. I could have done a better job with a delay that had finer delay points available...) As you can see I've gotten close to my full +12 db output at 81.3hz. But below and above you can see the cancelations going on. If both bandpasses are out of phase and out of cycle you can imagine how bad your system response could be! A shot in the dark at best.

This shows that its important to have your sub and midhigh ( when they are located close together ) not only in phase at the crossover point but also be on the same cycle. In other words you'd want both drivers to start to move accoustic energy out at the same time so the accoustic output sums correctly.1 sub 12.3ms delay added.JPG

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To sum it up I went from both subs being in phase and in alignment at 81.3 hz to..

3 ms. delay added. About a 1/4 cycle off. Effecting the highest frequencies in relation to the reference 81.3 hz.

6 ms off. Close to 1/2 cycle off. 1 subs was pushing out. The other sub pulling in. Drastic cut at 81.3 hz

9 ms added. Close to 3/4 of a cycle off. Very close to the 3ms reading at the 81.3 hz but effecting different frequencies according to their wavelenth size.

12.3ms delay added. Close to 1 cycle off. 1 sub moves in and out then the next subs cone starts moving in and out with it just being 1 cycle behind. Things seem to check out fine at the crossover point but because they are not on the same cycle it effects the upper and lower bandpasses differently. I've seen subs and midhighs as much as 5 cycles off.

You can see how phase and delay effect different areas according to frequency in question. The 2 are tied together. Its worth the time to at least check a system for proper phase and to see if the bandpasses are on the same cycle. At least in the lower freq. crossover range.

Doug

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Ok, we were saying the same thing but our points of reference were different by 6dB.

Also, it should be noted that the signal when measured from the front and not 2 cabinets facing each other will not be nearly as "exact" as the situation looks even less than a point source due to the distance across the driver (edge to edge on a pair of 18" drivers is ~34").

I find the point of diminshing returns to be around 3mSec or even more in the context of real world deployment.

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